Ornamentation: Brother Steve vs Grey Larsen

[arnie]

And what about a roll? A roll is described as a cut and tab coming together. Is anything said about the first part of the roll as being different?

[Wanderer]

And what about a roll? A roll is described as a cut and tab coming together. Is anything said about the first part of the roll as being different?

I always roll by cutting with the finger just above the note.

For instance, I do a G roll like this:
XXXOOO
XXOOOO
XXXOOO
XXXXOO
XXXOOO

[Screeeech!!!]

And what about a roll? A roll is described as a cut and tab coming together. Is anything said about the first part of the roll as being different?

I cut exactly the same for rolls as i do for cuts on their own. See my post on page 1.

[arnie]

Ok, my whistleteacher told me you had to cut on a for the lower notes or csharp for the higher. But as I read it there's no right or wrong in this, it's about preference.

[Guidus]

I'm relieved, fellows! Thanks a lot!
Guidus

[riverman]

No one has had to relearn more than me!
I began with a Walton's instruction book but misunderstood it so I cut on the same note as the one I was hitting--kind of a fast grace note. Later, reading Grey Larson taught me I was wrong. I almost didn't change, but am glad I did. Then I read Bro. Steve and did not change. Reading Grey Larson again, I discovered I was NOT supposed to cut off my air during a cut to make it sound crisper, but to make my cutting finger move fast.
DARN!
So I have made a lot of progress on that, but still cut off the air in my throat sometimes on a cut.
I hope I don't hear anything ELSE new!

[monkey587]

No one has had to relearn more than me!
I began with a Walton's instruction book but misunderstood it so I cut on the same note as the one I was hitting--kind of a fast grace note. Later, reading Grey Larson taught me I was wrong. I almost didn't change, but am glad I did. Then I read Bro. Steve and did not change. Reading Grey Larson again, I discovered I was NOT supposed to cut off my air during a cut to make it sound crisper, but to make my cutting finger move fast.
DARN!
So I have made a lot of progress on that, but still cut off the air in my throat sometimes on a cut.
I hope I don't hear anything ELSE new!

I don't think you need to worry so much about how you do it as long as it sounds right. There are plenty of "old geezers" who do things "wrong" and yet sound very irish. However, you have to actually listen to yourself objectively as well as recordings (or in person if possible) of great players. Find a player whose rolls sound good to you and try to emulate them, using advice from Steve or Grey or this thread or whatever. Don't stop until it sounds just like your model. You can then choose another model and do the same thing... There are different methods that work, but just don't follow some method someone claims is right unless it really sounds the way you think it should.

IMO there's too much advice floating around here from people who frankly don't sound like they are familiar with irish music. This is not directed at anyone in particular but it's just a typical side effect of a public forum like this, especially on the internet. Everyone likes to chime in even if they don't really know what they're talking about. Like me

[arnie]

I also thought to learn things from paper or internet-tutorials. Not until I found someone who would actually teach me how to play I really found out how to make a good roll. Best is indeed to see someone do it, try yourself and ask feedback to that person.

[PhilO]

Fairly recently I began using the fingers to separate triplets instead of the tongue in places where it was difficult at first - much easier to tongue; but in certain places what a different flavor the music can take on with just that little (yet for me a bit difficult) adjustment. I refer specifically to The Templehouse Jig (I don't know if anyone else here plays this - I love it), line 2, last bar. The triplets are highF/D/D, Low A/HighD/D (sorry, I still read sheet music not ABC - if there's a quick way to denote this for communicating, like upper and lower case, please advise), and come right after an eighth note high E lead in from the prior bar. I had been cutting the E into the F and then tongueing the two sets of triplets. Now I cut both sets of D notes (as well as the prior cut) using the G finger on the A hole ( if I understand Steve's terminology - I generally just do these things without thinking). It so happens that that finger had been a little more difficult for me to control. Now, the finger works better and the chiffy pop kind of effect as well as the actual cadence or overall effect is readily audibly distinguishable as different and somehow "better" to my ear. Also, as Steve notes, the fingers of the right hand can stay down making it a bit easier.

Yes, I will work on my musical communication skills.

Philo

[anniemcu]

... There's one thing I'm less lazy than Steve with, it's about the venting of the B hole for a high D note. I always leave the B uncovered for a high D, and Steve doesnt. I think your whistle might squeak a little more if you leave your finger on the B hole

I have found that it depends largely on the whistle. Some are fine with the hole left covered, while others can't get the true note out without it uncovered. I tend to play a particular small group of whistles, and sometimes it just takes a tune or two to adjust to the idiosyncracies of each.

[Stephen Seifert]

Larsen writes in his book about cuts on notes that descend by an interval larger than a second in the same register. In this case, he recommends cutting with the lowest finger that is covering a hole. (If going from an F# to a D, both in the low register, cut the D with the F# finger.) If you instead cut the D with the E finger, does this create what some call a delayed grace note, a double grace note(McCullough), or a casadh(Cotter)? If you're using Brother Steve's method, you would run into this situation a little less since you won't be cutting with the F# and E fingers. Anyone have a clue what I'm talking about?

I've switched to Larsen's style. It took about 6 months to get used to but it sounds better to me. Since I'm cutting with my lower fingers a lot, I think my crans are sounding MUCH better.

I've spent years learning a number of instruments and styles. There seems to be a pattern of re-learning that leads to advanced abilities. At first, relearning seems to be a total drag. Now, I embrace relearning and find that the rate at which I relearn seems to go up every time. I'm sure there is a limit.

Stephen Seifert

[JessieK]

Crookedtune, whistle fingering is different from flute fingering for C natural. Play them differently.

[Bloomfield]

I responded in the other thread you posted, Stephen.

About which fingers to use for cuts generally: Ultimately you want to be able to cut any note with any finger, anyway. I wouldn't worry about right or wrong or relearning, though. Much better to spend the time on getting the cuts crisp and blippy, no matter what the finger. I will use different cuts in differnt tunes; nothing very systematic about it, though.

Currently I am cutting a lot with L1, L2, L3 in the lower octave. In the upper octave, I try to keep the cut as close to the note as possible, and will often cut the note itself, esp. on high a (which can be not so nice if cut with L1), so:

xoo ooo cut
xxo ooo a

Very different effect on the middle d, depending on whether you vent the top hole.

[Bloomfield]

Fairly recently I began using the fingers to separate triplets instead of the tongue in places where it was difficult at first - much easier to tongue; but in certain places what a different flavor the music can take on with just that little (yet for me a bit difficult) adjustment. I refer specifically to The Templehouse Jig (I don't know if anyone else here plays this - I love it), line 2, last bar. The triplets are highF/D/D, Low A/HighD/D (sorry, I still read sheet music not ABC - if there's a quick way to denote this for communicating, like upper and lower case, please advise), and come right after an eighth note high E lead in from the prior bar. I had been cutting the E into the F and then tongueing the two sets of triplets. Now I cut both sets of D notes (as well as the prior cut) using the G finger on the A hole ( if I understand Steve's terminology - I generally just do these things without thinking). It so happens that that finger had been a little more difficult for me to control. Now, the finger works better and the chiffy pop kind of effect as well as the actual cadence or overall effect is readily audibly distinguishable as different and somehow "better" to my ear. Also, as Steve notes, the fingers of the right hand can stay down making it a bit easier.

Yes, I will work on my musical communication skills.

Philo

In abc notiation: upper case letter signifies lower octave, lower case letter signifies upper octave.

Groups of three eigth notes in a jig making up half a measure aren't strictly speaking triplets (triplets means: three notes crammed into the space of two).

I think cutting the between the da-da notes of the ya-da-da figures of a jig works, if you manage to keep the ya long and strong enough. The advantage of Brother Steve's slur-tongue-tongue is that the first tongue separates the first da from the ya. If you just use one cut in that figure you need fill that space with ya rather than da, or lose jigginess. (How's that for technical musical communication? )

[lesl]

Brad, just for the record, in her 2001 class at E Durham Mary Bergin also recommended using the G finger and the B finger for cuts and she certainly did use the G finger herself.

I think I was in that class. That was where I learned fingers for cuts, that and watching my teacher.

I also want to chime in about relearning: Last spring, I was giving back a tune he'd given me the week previously, when out of the blue he reached over and tapped my right hand pointer. 'Use this one' he said. It was between low EE on some reel where I'd normally use the left hand ring finger (which I think is the G finger). Just have to practice this one - enough times to override 5 years of cutting an E only one way.. some things take longer than others..