what key is it in?

[steggy]

help. I am trying to work out a simple way of telling what keya tune is written in.

I can understand the key signature thing but how do you know if it is being played in a minor version of the same. This may seem like a daft question and not put to owell but any pointers appreciated.


I have an inclination it is something to do with start or finish notes but really I am scratching my head.

Cheers

Steggy

[Henke]

The start note of a tune is not necessarily the tonic. But you will hear what the tonic note is when you play it. A tune usually ends with the tonic note as well, and you'll feel it as a sence of coming "home".
You can also tell what key a tune is in by recognicing the scale. A normal D whistle will play the scale with two sharps without any cross fingering, that is D major or B minor. If you cross finger C# to get C natural, then it is in G major or E minor.
I usually don't think too much about this when I'm picking out a tune.
It's easier still to just have a guitar or a piano and pick out the chords or just the bass notes.

[crookedtune]

Excellent question, and I don't really have the answer, though I've wondered about the same thing.

My method is just to look at the key signature and start playing. If it has that 'minor' sound, then I know it's in the relative minor of what the key signature says. ('C' becomes 'Am', 'G' becomes 'Em', 'D' becomes 'Bm', etc....). I don't know that there's really any other way to know.....

[Cynth]

I think this pretty much repeats what's been said, but maybe hearing it different ways will help. I haven't paid as much attention to the mode idea as I should yet I guess. But I'm having bigger problems .
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
But make sure to notice that he says it isn't always simple or cut and dried. Tunes can be weird.

[Lambchop]

I absolutely ignore this issue.

<sticks head back in sand>

[doogieman]

The key signature limits the "minor" possibilities. The first is the relative minor which can be found by going down 3 half steps from the tonic. The second choice is the Dorian which is the scale starting on the the 2nd scale tone.
D has 2 sharps - F# and C#. The relative minor is B and the Dorian minor with these sharps is E.
G has one sharp F#. The relative minor to G is E and it's Dorian minor is A.

You can ignore the whole issue for playing melodies and/or improvising. If you play the same "Set of Notes" ie - 2 sharps you will be OK.

Hope this helps.

[steggy]

Thanks to all for that helpful advice. i can sort of feel when it is a minor key but just don't know why. i'll keep on playing and listening and playing some more.

Thanks again Steggy

[Henke]

A minor key sounds sad, basically. The first third is a minor third. Try playing (on a D whistle) a low D followed by the third, F#. Then play an E followed by the third, G. You'll hear a difference in the interval allthough you lift the same amount of fingers for both. You can also play the scales. From low D to second D, just lift one finger at a time, no cross-fingering. The from low E to second E, lift one finger at a time and cross-finger C# to get Cnat (oxx ooo). Hearing the difference is not at all difficult if you listen.

[gonzo914]

The key signature limits the "minor" possibilities. The first is the relative minor which can be found by going down 3 half steps from the tonic. The second choice is the Dorian which is the scale starting on the the 2nd scale tone.
D has 2 sharps - F# and C#. The relative minor is B and the Dorian minor with these sharps is E.
G has one sharp F#. The relative minor to G is E and it's Dorian minor is A.

You can ignore the whole issue for playing melodies and/or improvising. If you play the same "Set of Notes" ie - 2 sharps you will be OK.

Hope this helps.

Don't forget the the Mixolydian, which on a D whistle starts on A. There are lots of jigs in A mixolydian, and they all sound like "Tenpenny Bit." )There may even be reels in A mixolydian, but I don't know because I don't play reels.)

That minor B referenced above is, I believe, the Aeolian mode, the mode of "Connaughtman's Rambles" and maybe "Star of the County Down."

The major scale is Ionian mode, other wise knows as "Doe a Deer" mode.

The other modes -- Lydian, Phyrgian, Locrian, Tryglyph and Metope, are used seldom if ever in Irish traditional music and not at all by most decent folks.

[Congratulations]

The key signature limits the "minor" possibilities. The first is the relative minor which can be found by going down 3 half steps from the tonic. The second choice is the Dorian which is the scale starting on the the 2nd scale tone.
D has 2 sharps - F# and C#. The relative minor is B and the Dorian minor with these sharps is E.
G has one sharp F#. The relative minor to G is E and it's Dorian minor is A.

You can ignore the whole issue for playing melodies and/or improvising. If you play the same "Set of Notes" ie - 2 sharps you will be OK.

Hope this helps.

Don't forget the the Mixolydian, which on a D whistle starts on A. There are lots of jigs in A mixolydian, and they all sound like "Tenpenny Bit." )There may even be reels in A mixolydian, but I don't know because I don't play reels.)

D whistles can also play in D mixolydian (same as major, but with a flat seven).

[Wormdiet]

The key signature limits the "minor" possibilities. The first is the relative minor which can be found by going down 3 half steps from the tonic. The second choice is the Dorian which is the scale starting on the the 2nd scale tone.
D has 2 sharps - F# and C#. The relative minor is B and the Dorian minor with these sharps is E.
G has one sharp F#. The relative minor to G is E and it's Dorian minor is A.

You can ignore the whole issue for playing melodies and/or improvising. If you play the same "Set of Notes" ie - 2 sharps you will be OK.

Hope this helps.

Don't forget the the Mixolydian, which on a D whistle starts on A. There are lots of jigs in A mixolydian, and they all sound like "Tenpenny Bit." )There may even be reels in A mixolydian, but I don't know because I don't play reels.)

[pedant warning]
Don't forget D Mixolydian - a very common mode for piping jigs. Ya get it by playing a normal scale and using Cnat instead of C#. I believe one of the "Toss the Feathers" reels is in Dmix too. Certainly tunes like "Within a mile of Dublin" and "My love is in America." Mixolydian sounds basically major to me but with a bit more "power" if that makes any sense whatsoever.

Nobody is hurt by learning a little bit about modes and music theory. Whistlers can get away without it but IMO it's very helpful for picking up tunes on the fly via ear learning.

Best way to learn about modes is to sit down with a fretted instrument like a guitar, an appriate fingering chart, and about 30 minutes worth of noodling. Pianos are great for this too.


[/pedant]

[doogieman]

Well, I was trying to keep it simple - once ya start into the modal thing it can get, well you know...............complicated

I follow the - "KISS principle" Keep It Simple Stupid. I say this to myself, but not often enough!

[Wormdiet]

Well, I was trying to keep it simple - once ya start into the modal thing it can get, well you know...............complicated

I follow the - "KISS principle" Keep It Simple Stupid. I say this to myself, but not often enough!

Coming from GHB as my first real instrument, modes make MUCH more sense and are much simpler than the western major/minor system! It's all a question of perspective.

In many cases, the key signature is downright misleading as a guide to the tonality of the tune.

[Henke]

When I'm thinking of modes I think the same way as I think of chords. If you play a chord, whatever, you might just put six fingers on random places on a guitar, and it might sound crapp, but it is still a chord, and there is a name for it. It probably has uses.
It's the same with modes. Whatever scale you play, that scale does excist and there's a name for it. The fact that we only really grow up with two scales called major and minor has really deminished our perspective on music.
Whatever you play, it's never wrong (well, acctually it's never wrong as long as you know what you're doing, but no one has to know if you know or not), if it sounds crappy, it's progressive music.

[Gunslinger]

When I'm thinking of modes I think the same way as I think of chords. If you play a chord, whatever, you might just put six fingers on random places on a guitar...

Excuse moi, but how many fingers do you have? When playing chords on guitar I use mostly 1-4 fingers and occasionally I use "thumbed barres" and even that makes only 5 fingers...

Ok, I'm kidding, you propably meant placing your fingers randomly and then playing all the 6 strings to form a chord.

Br,
Heikki Petäjistö