How do 2 whistlers play together without it sounding boring?

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 11:19 am

On 2002-07-02 10:39, StevieJ wrote:

To Blackhawk and Neil (with apologies to everyone else):

Why apologize? Are you ashamed of what you wrote?

Also, you have to realize that Neil is a very punctilious man. Several times in the past he has picked apart my posts phrase by phrase by phrase. So, in my previous reply, I thought I would give him a taste of his own medicine - without any added rancour. (Daft idea, probably.)

It is an amusing pastime.

"Punctilious" is it? Very well ...

I was attempting - without offering any comment on the discussion at issue - to show him that his questions were predicated on false premisses.

... there are only two "s"-es in "premises," according to my dictionary.

Are you suggesting that if someone has sufficient tenure on the board we are no longer obligated to be nice to them?
No. What gave you that idea? I was merely pointing out that your question was beside the point.

The context gave me the idea. To recapitulate: When I asked how a newbie was to know what questions not to ask hereabouts, you assumed I was referring to lollycross. When you pointed out she had been around for a while, I asked whether you thought that meant it was therefore open season on all such.

Quite reasonable when you think about it. "Yes" or "no" would have sufficed.

I was referring to the reception she got from a couple of "old timers" on the board who should have known better. Others of us had responded to her question in constructive ways when they chimed in, gratuitously, condescendingly, rather insufferably.
Yes I realize that. (Do credit me with a little intelligence.) Again, I was merely commenting on the way you phrased your question, which was tantamount to putting words into people's mouths.

Not hardly. The question was phrased as it was in order to point up what had in fact been done and to stimulate thought on the subject.

How is one to know what is acceptable to ask, and what not? Is it in the FAQ somewhere?
I would have said that all questions are acceptable, as are all answers. Knowing your views on the importance of not silencing people, I would have imagined you would agree.

As you point out, my sentiments on the subject are well known. There is a world of difference, I find, between a person exercising judgement in what they write, perhaps electing under some circumstances not to write at all, and a person being silenced by others. My suggestion is in favor of the exercise of judgement, even compassion. No other form of discipline ever works so well as self-discipline.

What harm does it do to be courteous?
It does no harm to be courteous, of course. That's a choice we can all make. I try. But tell me, would you silence those who fail to meet your criteria of courtesy?

Never! A lout, it happens, is easy to recognize, whether in person or in print. I simply identify them as such, and soldier on.

_________________
Best regards,

Neil Dickey

[ This Message was edited by: ndjr on 2002-07-02 13:23 ]

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 11:57 am

Well, my self-discipline has just run out: Neil, you truly are a Self-Righteous Ass at times. Just thought I'd point that out

Loren

lollycross · Post by **lollycross** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 12:07 pm

PLEASE STOP GUYS! I am so sorry I asked this question.
I am a 57-year old grandmother who can take
being called an idiot and being told I asked
a rediculous question, but gee, the little
school-girl that e-mailed me and wanted to play Whistle with someone else, is only 17 and is so scared now, she may never approach the subject again.
I just wanted a simple book to buy so we could meet and enjoy each other's company,
regardless of our age diffenence. I didn't want to start everyone fighting. So please
stop and answer other folks questions today.
Lolly

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:11 pm

Makes sense, Lolly. Who's up for a group hug?

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:27 pm

On 2002-07-02 13:57, Loren wrote:
Well, my self-discipline has just run out: Neil, you truly are a Self-Righteous Ass at times. Just thought I'd point that out

Loren

I caught Loren's wink at the end of the post and chuckling thought - Aren't we all at times. And further thought - for lots of unrelated reasons, as I looked at my hands swollen 1/2 a glove size from the 2nd week of temperatures in the 90's and percent humidity running in the same number range. So after the air conditioning and running my hands under some running water which relieved my general iritation; I re-read the posts. Now thanks to A/c and cold water, my contribution should be a little cooler too.

I wanted to thank folks for helping crystalize a couple of ideas that have been brewing. I attended a workshop "Irish Sessions 101" last saturday which was very helpfull and which sort of put the pot on to stew.

First, to learn IRTrad you need time playing in the woodshed and time playing in session. Different folks need different amounts off each as they grow in the tradition; but, both are neccessary.

Second, IRTrad, especially as reflected in playing tunes (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc.) is about melody and rhythm. Harmony has only a minor roll if any in IRTrad and then primarly to help support the rhythm. This is a difference between IRTrad and other genres where harmony seeks to enrich the musical phrasing and complexity. It's also a difference that serves to enrich IRTrad and define it.

Third, IRTrad is only one part of a larger traditional folk music genre that includes a number of related styles of music; for example, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Breton, Acadian, Appalachian, Cajun. All are multigenerational, adding songs, tunes, new forms, and new instruments, in gradual fashion (Gradual as measured in decades not years). All of these place greater emphasis on folks participating in the music, as opposed to dividing rolls into performer and audience. All of these style or sub-genres have a valid place and all of them tend to influence one another to varying degrees. Influences are shared but the styles aren't merged. Each style still maintains the traditions that characterize that particular style.

Whistle and flute fit well into most of these for lots of reasons. My point is in answering the original post:
How do 2 whistlers play together without it sounding boring?

All of these points were raised and supported in the posts that answered Lolly's questions. Lolly , if a friend was comming over to sing with you, then how might you approach it.

Perhaps, by making sure you'd had some practice before they arrived to loosen up the vocal cords and continue to get your voice shaped up.

Perhaps by suggesting some traditional songs that were sung in unison to establish a connection of shared music for your kitchen session.

Perhaps you might also dabble in some related styles that carried both voices well, giving opportunity to play with a variety of music forms.

Seems to me, all these apply equally to a first session of whistlers as it does singers.

<hr>I wrote the above but was drawn away before finishing the post. When I came back to finish it, Lolly had posted her "cool it guys" message. I'm hoping this qualifies as cooled<hr>

Finally Lolly, it wouldn't be one of my posts without a final reminder to ...

_________________

Enjoy Your Music, Lee Marsh 

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-07-02 15:35 ]

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:31 pm

There are about 4 topics going on here, so I won't be too off topic. (Has nothing to do with lolly's question.)
Great post by Chris L. (First, I ask him to check himself, then, I'm enthusiastically agreeing with him.)

Chris L wrote:...the ONLY way to become a good musician. There are no shortcuts. No amount of round playing, harmonizing, trick ornaments or anything like that is going to make up for lazyness when it comes to really learning how to play the instrument.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here. But, Chris' comments resonate with me. We're all in it for different reasons and have different goals. For some of us, we want to get as good as we can. One of the critical elements for improvement is sitting down by yourself and seriously drilling tunes over and over, focusing on your rhythm, technique, etc. No shortcuts, no gimmicks. Only to share my own experience, I get more satisfaction from doing just that than I do from going to sessions, etc. They're fun, but, I'd feel I was missing something if I went to sessions all the time and never drilled on my own. (I know someone who does that.) This is where the real improvement comes from. For instance, changing my pace and examining what's happening at various parts of a tune- I realize I tense up and wobble indecisively at certain passages and need to go really slow and retrain my fingers. You can't do that at a session. Mainly, I just like drilling.

I never give out advice to anyone in person without being asked. I don't get asked. My instinct is that it wouldn't be appreciated. I want to knock some people on the head, and say, 'wake up' but I discipline myself not to. (They're bigger than me, so forget that.)

So, anyway, we're not in Ireland. The standards are different. Some people are just messing around or have found a level of comfort and there they are. None of my business. Like I said before, there are people who know an instrument, but don't know much about Irish music. Don't worry about them. Do what you need to do. (Easier to say than do.) IF you're lucky enough to find people who meet your standards, hang out with them. There's going to be all kinds of people doing their thing whatever you think of it.
What's my point? No idea.
Tony

Halal · Post by **Halal** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:33 pm

I am a professional singer. I took voice lessons for close to twenty years. In that time I've had a lot of fun singing, but I have had to be quite serious about my skills in that area. One does not become a skilled singer, or musician overnight.

I spent a lot of hours learning my craft. In addition to taking voice lessons, I had to learn theory, rhythm, dictation, how to play the piano and sing in other languages. In addition to all of this, I had to take the time to learn and memorize the aria, opera, or oratorio I was singing.

Now I'm am learning to play the tin whistle.
I am having fun with it, but I do want to be a skilled player.

Lolly, find a simple tune and start with it.
If you or your friend have a good ear, you could put in a simple harmony line and thus fill out the tune.

It makes a lot of sense to me to learn the easy tunes to start with, and play them well.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:51 pm

On 2002-07-02 14:07, lollycross wrote:
PLEASE STOP GUYS! I am so sorry I asked this question.

Hey, Lolly, don't be sorry! This is a good thread and good things have been said in it. You can take from it some practical advice and the very valuable pointer that you should not ever consider your music boring, not even potentially. There has been a discussion of the role of harmony in Irish trad music. I have learned a lot reading the posts of ChrisL, TonyH, Peter L. Gems of wisdom are found in unlikely places on these online boards. It will be great if anyone who plays whistle or any other instrument reads this thread and takes from it the knowledge that we make a choice about our playing every day: What do I aspire to? Who will I model my playing and my attitude to the music on? What am willing to invest in the music?

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:09 pm

On 2002-07-02 13:19, ndjr wrote:
... there are only two "s"-es in "premises," according to my dictionary.

Get yourself a better one then. You will find that "premiss" and "premise" are variant spellings of the same word.

I'm not at home so cannot check in my good dictionary to see whether there is an etymological difference, but some users make a distinction, using the first for the basis for an argument, and the second for a physical location.

Hmm. I think you'd use just about anything as the basis for an argument!

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 2:34 pm

A side discussion has grown out of Lolly's question: The discussion of the merits of practice and merits of playing together. I openned a separate topic called Woodshed and Session. I hope some who have posted here will also post (or repost) to it. Thanks and ...

_________________

Enjoy Your Music, Lee Marsh 

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-07-02 16:35 ]

srt19170 · Post by **srt19170** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:00 pm

I've always thought that on bulletin boards and the like you should always give every posting the most liberal positive interpretation possible. That makes up for a lot of the lost verbal and physical clues we take for granted in a normal conversation.

In this case, I interpreted the original post as "Hey guys, any clever ideas about spicing up two whistles playing together?" which to me seems pretty innocuous and reasonable.

-- Scott T.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:08 pm

On 2002-07-02 16:09, StevieJ wrote:
On 2002-07-02 13:19, ndjr wrote:
... there are only two "s"-es in "premises," according to my dictionary.
Get yourself a better one then. You will find that "premiss" and "premise" are variant spellings of the same word.

I'm not at home so cannot check in my good dictionary to see whether there is an etymological difference, but some users make a distinction, using the first for the basis for an argument, and the second for a physical location.

Hmm. I think you'd use just about anything as the basis for an argument!

Neil didn't want me to send him a good dictionary, a while back. That's what he gets for it.

"Premiss" as basis for an argument is my usage, although my dictionary just lists both variants, without distinction. Now that I think about it, "premiss" seems BritE, while "premise" seems AmE.

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:15 pm

Lee's dictionary:

Premiss: The stage at which I'm aiming but haven't yet shot.

Groan: my family's appropriate response to my pun-ishment.

NicoMoreno · Post by **NicoMoreno** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:30 pm

Someone mentioned something about money related to ability, and quite honestly the best musicians do get the most money. The best musicians are not the guess who practise by themselves, play at sessions, and maybe ofr a family function. The best are the ones who have made up there mind to do music as an employment. There is no motivation like hunger to make you want to improve.
I would like to state that the above paragrapg is a reflection on several discussions I had with music teachers and musicians about my choice for post-secondary education. I applied to study music (French Horn) at a nearby University, had an audition and was accepted. ApparentlyI am not that bad of a player. But, I decided against it. Why? Because I am not prepared to give up the other possibilities I have, because I don't spend three hours every day practising, (and that is just teh minimum requirement for success in music) and because I am not one whose life is devoted to music.
I am one of those who enjoys music. Heck, I love it! But I will not be the next David Brain. Not unless I give up everything else (whistles, trumpet, mandolin, piano, recorder, guitar, math, chemical engineering, philosophical discussions about the nature of IrTrad...) to focus on my french horn playing.
Ok... What is happening in this thread is that some people are saying they just want to play for fun, and some people are saying you have to work to be good. These are NOT mutually exclusive. I have always had fun, even while practising a trumpet song (on my french horn) because my music teacher gave us that for a final solo, even after a very amazing french horn professional and teacher said that it was ridiculous for her to be making musicians play a piece designed for a different instrument, even when my lips start bleeding after practising the high Cs and Ds, even when I am completely discouraged because the stupid piece just doesn't sound right, and even when my girlfriend tells me she doesn't much care for the sound of brass. Working hard IS fun. Why else do it? Working hard for money is stupid, not fun at all. Working hard for ME, well that's the best reward I can give myself.

Wow. I ranted. I hope nobody was offended. Please do not get mad at me, as I am still young, I don't know everything, and life goes on!

Nico

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:07 pm

On 2002-07-01 21:18, ChrisLaughlin wrote:

I begged Peter Molloy (Matt Molloy's son) for lessons, and finally he agreed.

He said "Okay, well your tone is crap, your rhythm is crap, your ornaments are crap and you don't know enough tunes. Will you work hard enough to become a real flute player?"

Chris, this is one of the most educational posts I've ever read. Thanks for taking the time to explain so much that someone like myself isn't likely to hear anywhere else. In the unlikely event that you're still checking this post occasionally, I have one more question. When you began taking lessons from Peter, you evidently thought you knew a lot of tunes. Roughly, how many did you know at that point, and how many did Peter think you needed to know before you rose to the level of...shall we say, being "literate" in Irish music? Just to give me something to shoot for.