double tongueing

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:22 pm

OK, it took a year, but now I can half hole.
Whew. Next comes double tongueing.

Do I go Tik Kah Tik Kah Tik Kah?
Or Tik Kah Tik Tik Kah Tik Tik Kah?
Or?

How on earth to you practice this?

Please help, and thanks!

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:04 pm

Teo years later and I STILL can't do it well myself! I'll second the call for help!

B~

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:47 pm

If you want to double tongue, do Ti Kah, Ti Kah

If you want to tripple tongue, then use Ti Kah Ti, Ti Kah Ti

How do you practise these? I'm not sure if this is the best method but what I do is I try to play tripple tongues up the scale, aiming to do each note clearly and nicely. Then as you get better you probably can tripple tongue the scale quick and clearly. If you do use these as an ornament, make sure your rhythm and beat is not sacrificed, because thats what happened to me. Ended up spoiling the flow of the tune when I tried to place a badly done 3tongue in a tune.

Stevie could probably tell you lots more about these tonguing things... I'm quite new to these myself. Those multiple-tonguing ornaments are probably the ones I want to play well the most right now. After asking lots of questions and practising every day, I think I can play a half-decent tripple tongue (that sounds like a tripple tongue and doesn't make the tune go out of beat too much). Hurray!=)

[ This Message was edited by: Eldarion on 2001-08-14 01:53 ]

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 1:41 am

If 'Ti Kah Ti' doesn't work for you, you could also try 'Ti Kah Ta'. Others also use 'Tah Kah Dah'. By using 'ah' as the final syllable, it gets your tongue back into position to make the next Ti.

My 2 cents,
Erik

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:31 am

It took me quite a while to teach myself double and triple tonguing. And like above it has to be used in selected places as not to interfere with the rythym or breathing.
This year I got from Mel Bay publishers "A Dossan of Heather" Irish traditional music from Packie Manus Byrne of Donegal. It comes with a CD.

Reading the book and listening to the CD, Packie talks and demonstrates his style of triple tongueing. It's the best example I ever heard, and have played the CD many , many times and just now getting to sense the style, and timing.

I hope this helps Jim

Mark

DrGiggles · Post by **DrGiggles** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 7:51 am

To practice double-tounging, you'll need a metronome. Start at about 90 bpm and on C# (or whatever note is easiest for you) and practice 'ti-ka' 'ti-ka' (one dt per beat) keeping it even and steady. Once you've got it even at 90 bpm, go to about 110-120 bpm, once you've got that even, go to G and do it, once you can do it well on G, work your way down to low D.

Once you can dt at 120 bpm on low D, go back to G or C# and speed it up to around 160 bpm; then work your way down to low D when you've got it.

After you can dt low D, start dt'ing scales, songs, and just practice away.

After this, go to triple tounging... and then... hold on to your seats... Flutter Tounging!

My 2 cents,
Frank

Gary Fox · Post by **Gary Fox** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 8:05 am

I've found that if Ti-kuh doesn't work that well for you, try Deh-guh. For some reason, that combination is easier for many people. The end result is the same sound.

JohnPalmer · Post by **JohnPalmer** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:55 pm

It's easy to dbl tongue one note over and over. The hard part is doing it and moving fingers at the same time. One way to begin is to dbl tongue between two notes at a time, say, D & E, then E & F, etc. Eventually you want to be able to do it on a simple scale. You can practice only the ka part by tonguing with just the back of the tongue. Pick a song and play it using only ka. That will add much to your ability. As far as which way to dbl tongue, tah-kah vs. ti-ki, too-koo vs., doo-koo, I think it ends up being whatever allows you to do it the easiest, and how hard you want to attack-a tack-a tack-a the note. Also practice dbl tonguing while not playing, like at work, in a car, etc. The best place to practice it is in Ta-co Ta-co Ta-co Ta-co Ta-cooooo Bell. (Corny)

This is my first post in a while. We moved and have been awaiting the hook up to a new ISP.

JP

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Aug 14, 2001 2:15 pm

Thanks to all!

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 7:56 am

On 2001-08-14 07:31, MarkB wrote:
This year I got from Mel Bay publishers "A Dossan of Heather" Irish traditional music from Packie Manus Byrne of Donegal. It comes with a CD.

Reading the book and listening to the CD, Packie talks and demonstrates his style of triple tongueing.

Point of information, Mark: Packie Manus does not play on the CD that accompanies the book "A Dossan of Heather". Packie is now 84 and (to all intents and purposes) gave up playing the whistle about 10 years ago because of arthritis in his hands.

Most of the whistle on this CD is played by Jean Duval, and some by me. You can find full details about who plays what by going to http://www.rogermillington.com, following the link to "A Dossan of Heather", and then clicking on "About the companion CD".

Due to an oversight by the publisher, the details of who plays on the CD were omitted. They have promised to correct this when (we hope) the book is reprinted.

I'm glad you liked the CD. We tried to play in Packie's style as far as possible. But we are in the triple-tonguing kindergarten compared to Packie, who is a true master of the art. You would probably find the cassette album issued by <a href= "http://www.oldhatmusic.freeserve.co.uk/ ... Veteran</a>, "From Donegal and Back" interesting. On it you can hear Packie play a couple of reel sets.

ATB
Steve

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2001-08-15 09:58 ]

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:14 am

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa --Steve.

Reading your post above the only word I have is "Duh". I should have realized that from the readings. But even slowing down the tracks on Dossan of Heather, I find the sound alike by Jean Duvbal trying to play like Packie truely remarkable in their ability.

Trying to imitate him, if I can at all, is going to take some time----if it is achieveable!

From the sparse use of ornamentation of Micho Russell to Packie Manus Byrne is quite a distance. But I have fallen in complete rapture of music of Donegal and the Shetland Islands. I tend to the side of sparse ornamentation including double/triple tonguing and all fingering gymnastics.

We each find what is in us in the music and take and give as we feel it. That's is the beauty of it all.

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Wed Aug 15, 2001 7:50 pm

Hey Stevie, do you have any more people I should listen to beside Packus and Josie McDermott if I want to hear and improve tripple tonguings? Thanks!

Man... I do hope that in ten years more or so I can graduate to tripple tonguing junior high..

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 12:08 pm

On 2001-08-15 21:50, Eldarion wrote:
Any more people I should listen to beside Packie Manus Byrne and Josie McDermott if I want to hear and improve triple tonguing?

I think that many of the younger generation of players use triple-tonguing. If you listen to Sean Ryan and Laurence Nugent you'll hear a lot of it. Often (unlike Packie and Josie McD) they mix it up with fingered ornamentation, doing a kind of triple-tongued roll that is apparently called (I learned this from occasional poster to the board, Caffeina) a "chitter".

This is not actually that difficult to do, but it gives a kind of frothy sound that I'm not convinced I like. Sean Ryan does it supremely well though -- listen to the jigs on his first album, "Take the Air". He does it so subtly that I didn't realize what was going on until I'd had the album for about a year and started to wonder what it was about his rolls that sounded different.

But other players throw in the odd triple-tongue without really making it a feature of their style. At East Durham Irish arts week I heard Kathleen Coneely, a player from England who had the loveliest style, and she would use a tongued ascending triplet about once in every five tunes, as far as I could make out!

On Vinny Kilduff's album, if you listen carefully, you'll hear one or two. And Mick O'Brien (who's mainly a piper), tosses in the odd one when you're not expecting it, as does Mike McGoldrick.

Then there's Brian Finnegan of Flook. He's out on his own, as far as I can tell. Overkill?

But, Eld, if you can "do it" as well as Josie McD or Packie, it'd be more than good enough for me and most people! I don't think it'll take you ten years, though.