Blowing notes into tune?

[Kar]

I just got a new electric tuner and, for the first time, checked the accuracy of my whistles. Even with the tuneable ones, I was shocked to see that, when the bell note is dead-on, the rest of the octave (in varying degrees) was off, up to 20 cents. Some of the whistles that displayed this characteristic: my Chieftain A, Dixon A & Bb, Serpent Polly D, Shaw C.

Is this normal? I assumed that at least the Dixons & the Chieftain, with their good reputations, would be in tune across the octave. Now, I know that with the flute you can blow the notes in & out of tune, but I always assumed with a whistle, there would be little to no leeway. You either get the note or don't. I realize there are tone qualities that would be improved with a better player, but shouldn't the accuracy of the note be pretty much the same with a beginner and experienced player?

Suddenly, I am all concerened that perhaps I am somehow playing the whistle wrong, after two years of playing! Can someone enlighten me here?

The irony is I bought the tuner to help with my violin playing, but on a whim decided to check the whistles. FYI, I also checked my tuner against another tuner just to make sure, and the tuner is fine.

[E = Fb]

Welcome to the wonderful world of whistle tuning. It's normal. This is one reason why it's good to become intimately familar with one whistle. You know where to push and where to back off. Let me suggest a Susato, the most in tune whistle available that I can afford, plus a good pair of ear plugs for practicing at home.

[Bloomfield]

The Dixon may have a good reputation, but not really for (consistently) being in tune.

[chas]

I don't think many of my whistles are exactly on pitch over two octaves. Most are maybe 10 cents off on at least a few notes. Some of those can be blown into tune, some can't, and none sound good being blown into tune. There are a few that are far enough off that they sound a little clunky, but being a few cents off doesn't really sound awful, even playing along with records on slow tunes.

Many whistles allow one to bend notes. This can also be put, many whistles have tuning that's sensitive to air flow or pressure. This is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it allows you to bend notes, which can add to the expressiveness of your playing. OTOH, you have to play the same volume for each not every time to be in tune, which can detract from the expressiveness of your playing. Other whistles are reasonably insensitive to air flow.

Some highly respected whistles are in the very sensitive category, especially O'Riordans, at least his concert whistles.

[brewerpaul]

Alas, 'tis true. Each and every note of each and every whistle has it's own personality and quirks and must be kitzeled into correct pitch. It's all a part of the charm of these simple flutes.
Pity the poor fiddle player: there ARE no exact notes at all, at least none demarcated by a fret. Apart from the open strings, each one has to be "felt" into pitch each and every time. At least, we have fingerholes to get us close, leaving us only with the task of fine tuning the note.

[Bloomfield]

And even if you whistle is in tune, you may want to blow it out of tune again, playing in just rather than equal temprament.

[Monster]

And even if you whistle is in tune, you may want to blow it out of tune again, playing in just rather than equal temprament.

Bloomie are you serious? This is a new subject for me (not being a smart arse), I would think that just temperment would have been used before Bach's time (well tempered clavier and such) and maybe used a bit longer in other genres. And what would just tuning mean for a whistle? I vaguely remember something about that if a keyboard is using just tuning, it's only good for playing in a couple of keys or something along those lines. And that such an altered tuning (altered from equal temperment? temprament?) would produce different sonorities due to the altercation of overtones that come about while playing chords.

[Cayden]

And even if you whistle is in tune, you may want to blow it out of tune again, playing in just rather than equal temprament.

Bloomie are you serious? This is a new subject for me (not being a smart arse), I would think that just temperment would have been used before Bach's time (well tempered clavier and such) and maybe used a bit longer in other genres. And what would just tuning mean for a whistle? .

Some traditional [fiddle] players, especially the older generations, would tend to use an intonation leaning towards Just intonation. This is arguably more suitable to irish music. The chanter of a well tuned set of pipes would ideally be in just intonation [an equal tempered chanter will not sound very well played over the drones, in just intonation every note playes a perfect harmony with the drones].

Ronaldo Reyburn offers whistles in just intonation and to my ear a whistle leaning towards just intonation would sound that much sweeter than an equal tempered one [being used to a well tuned flat uilleann chanter]. I think you'll find older flutes and the more 'traditional' whistles use a tuning leaning towards just intonation [for example F up to 14 cents flat, B about that much flat from equal temp and a C natural around 25-30 cents 'off']
Using just intonation you tend to get the electronic tuner brigade on your back claiming things like 'that whistle is not perfectly in tune' 'your B is out of tune' 'my crossfingered C natural isn'r right', well maybe your tuner says so but what do your ears tell you when you play a tune? Conditioned as our ear may be into thinking the equal tempered scale is correct, it is a compromise while the just intonation is the true harmonic scale.

That aside, playing a whistle you'll find that you can easily blow a note twenty cent above or below it's designated pitch, you have some liberty in your inonation so. It's just one of these things you'll have to learn.

[Wombat]

Now, I know that with the flute you can blow the notes in & out of tune, but I always assumed with a whistle, there would be little to no leeway. You either get the note or don't.

Nope. That characteristic low whistle sound in which the end of a note sort of 'fades away into the mists' is got by blowing the note flat.

[Bloomfield]

What I am not clear about is whether the tuning on traditional cheap whistles, like Generations, is "off" in a way that makes it closer to just intonation or whether it's just off.

[BrassBlower]

Is this why when you tune a guitar by harmonics, then check it with a tuner, some of the strings are off just a little bit?

[Kar]

Well, it's good to know that it's partially me, partially the whistles.

Oddly, I happen to have a D/C set of Just Intonation Reyburns....I didn't check them against the tuner, knowing they would register as being "off," even though they are designed to sound the way they sound.

I also have started the violin (or fiddle, but since I'm being classically trained, it's a violin) and I don't think the absence of frets is NEARLY as bad as everyone says it is. Yes, of course, it's easier to just close a whistle hole with a finger than try and find the right note on a stringed instrument, but...the violin isn't that much different from a guitar, in terms of finding WHERE the notes are. You get sort of used to the feel of it. I mean, most guitar players don't LOOK at the neck, do they? I've been playing guitar for three months and I only look once to get started and then that's it....

Now, the violin is impossible for OTHER reasons--the fingering seems physically impossible to do, the bowing beyond is tough, and getting a non-hideous sound escapes me for the whole time except for a note or two once per practice session....the lack of frets is almost the least of my worries!

Well, I'm totally off the subject now but oh well!

[BoneQuint]

Is this why when you tune a guitar by harmonics, then check it with a tuner, some of the strings are off just a little bit?

Yep.

[Loren]

Kar,

There are many whistles out there that are quite well tuned from note to note and across a two octave scale, but many more that are not. Chris Abells whistles tend to be dead on for example, while a number of the ones you mentioned tend not to be well in tune. It's always a good idea to check a new whistle on a tuner (after you've warmed it up) to make sure the tuning is acceptable, so that you can return it for a refund or replacement within a reasonable time if everything isn't Kosher.

Loren

[Reyburnwhistles]

Kar, Peters got it right on. I find that if I tune the notes precisely to the tuner ("Equal Temperament") and then play from one note in the lower octave (say a A) to another note in the upper octave (say an E) they don't fit well together, even thou the tuner says they should. And thats a result of the "Equal Tempered" scale. So when I tune the instrument I fudge a bit to make them sound like they are actually in the same scale. So its this dance that has to happen beyond what the tuner says and the best way to check it out, for me, is to play some test tunes and hear how all the notes fit together.

If I'm making a "Just intoned" instrument they "will" fit together without adjustment because all of the notes are ratios of the fundamental frequency, and the overtones will all resonate with that frequency. And that is why Peter has stated that Just is the preference for pipers, cause those drones just keep on droning and all of the notes must fit with those drones or it sounds like caca.

So bottom line is, don't put too much imphasis on the tuner, as long as the scale stays fairly close to it (say 10 to 15 cents).

Hope this helps!
Ronaldo