How much is the whistle and how much is the player?

[Whistlepeg]

I'm glad to see that most people think that the player is more important than the instrument when it comes to sounding good - I agree. Unfortunately too many music students seem to think that a different instrument will make them sound better rather than hours of practice.
However, as a music teacher with over 30 years experience, I have found that a beginning student is definitely held back by an inferior instrument.
Yes Mary Bergin and Paddy Maloney and John Skelton all recorded on Generations - old Generations that they had owned for years. You notice that they have now switched to John Sindt's instruments. There has been much discussion on the Board about how the old Generations were much better instruments before they were "improved" some years back.
My point is that if you have a good Generation, you need no other whistle to sound good. I know that a lot of people here have their favourite brand of whistle and that is great, but I recommend Generations to all my beginning students.

[lixnaw]

both equal, i love my burkes!!

[slowair]

A good player can make a bad whistle sound good, that's true enough.

However, a good whistle can make a so-so player sound better.

This I know from personal experience.

When you find a whistle you like, stick to it. It's like anything else. You need to know the instrument well in order to play well on it. Don't jump from whistle to whistle.

Good luck.

Mike

[scottadm]

My first whistle was a Generation D that a friend gave to me. I hated the buzzy, weak tone on it and thought it was probably one of the bad ones. I then spent many hours learning the basics on a Susato and a Sweettone. Then I spent many hours getting my new Oak under control. Now I have gone back to fiddling around with that old Gen and it doesn't sound so bad any more. Now that I have practiced with it a bit, I actually like the thing now (not as much as that Oak though.) That definatly proved to me that it was the player that was bad, not the whistle.

[MurphyStout]

Thanks for the insights, everyone. MurphyStout, I have tried to tweak my Gens, and had little luck. The Dixon is the one I come back to, but maybe I'll break in the Clare as I like its tone. I learn a lot from taping myself as the tape recorder doesn't lie!

Is it the tweak that is giving you problems? If not, sometimes you just need to break a whistle in. They age very much like wine. I disliked my whistle at first but I kept giving it chances every now and then and it began to sound better. Go for the sound you want, if you like teh high end sound go for that, and if you like the cheapie sound stick with it and it will pay off eventually.

[cj]

MurphyStout, your point is well taken. I've spent some of this evening playing the same tune and taping it on different whistles. After recording several renditions of Rolling on the Ryegrass, some on whistles I would have written off before as being unplayable, I realize that some of them are, but some of them aren't. As an example, I have a Guiness/Walton's whistle someone gave to me years ago that sounded terrible, and now I like the way it plays. I really do like the Walton's/Clare/Gen sound--it's a gritty sound (I'll refrain from using the word "chiff" since it's subjective). And two whistles that were big surprises as to how great they sound were a Sweetone and a Meg.

I don't know if I can stick to just one whistle because I have different moods and want to hear different whistle voices in them, as others have mentioned. (Plus I like to collect them as part of my general passion for folk instruments). Maybe I can narrow down the ones I play to 3 or 4.

The encouraging thing about taping myself is that I know I've actually learned something and have gotten better over the years. Mary and Joanie aren't gonna worry about me, but I actually don't suck sometimes! The oft-repeated advice holds true: time spent playing the whistle is more important than the actual instrument, especially after you get past the initial stage where being discouraged by a bad instrument might make you give it up.

Thanks to everyone again for your valuable opinions.

[Wombat]

Although I have some tendency to agree with most of the points being made here, there's something seriously weird about the direction this discussion is going in. The consensus seems to be, first, that if you're good you won't need anything other than a cheap whistle, and second, that you should probably learn to play on one rather than swap around.

Now if it were any instrument other than whistle, nobody would seriously offer this advice to anybody who had a fighting chance of becoming a good player. I spent several frustrating years learning to play guitar on inferior instruments. My playing leapt ahead as soon as I got my first instrument with good tone. Now I can coax good tone out of a cheap instrument (sometimes) but I couldn't do that until I'd played for an extended period on an instrument that allowed me to forget about it's limitations and just concentrate on playing. Same goes for concertinas and every other instrument I play. I'd always recommend that you buy the best instrument you can afford as soon as you get serious if you want to progress as quickly as possible.

So why are whistles different? They aren't. If a cheap whistle really is good, it doesn't matter if it's cheap. If a whistle isn't good, whatever it cost, you won't learn to play as quickly on it as you will on a better instrument, nor will the virtuoso sound as good as on a better instrument.

Although I agree that we have to get to know each of our whistles intimately, I think it should be no major problem playing a wide range of makes and keys, at least when we are no longer beginners. If you want to be able to accompany singers or play in styles other than IT you'll need whistles in just about every key anyway, each one posing it's own challenges in fingering and breath control.

Trying to put percentages to the respective contributions of talent and equipment is just downright misleading. Equipment being equal, the virtuoso will sound much better than the merely competent player. Playing talent being equal, the great whistle will sound much better than the ordinary whistle. Moral: buy the best one you can find and afford.

Just to reinforce these points, Cathal McConnell's demonstration CD contains a lot of advice on ways of overcoming shrillness at the top of the range of his Generation D. His tips are good and the techniques well worth knowing. But the need to get around this problem places limitations on his technique that wouldn't exist if he bought a good top-end instrument. No serious guitarist would tolerate a handicap like this.

[skh]

I think the question is a different one: is a sophisticated whistle "better" than a mass-produced cheap instrument? I'd say it isn't, it's exactly the proletarian, battered, dirty, cheap character of the low-end variety, the "you don't need big money to make music, just shut up and practice", why I like whistles at all.

For any other instrument, I agree that beginners need the "best" isntrument they can afford or get hold of. With whisltes, I'm not sure.

Sonja

[cj]

Wombat, I had the same experience with guitar, had my first one whose action was killing my fingers. I got another one and had a much easier time. However, it was not an expensive one either, just one with butter-smooth action. Even so, I had experienced guitarists try to tell me I needed to strengthen my grip and "pay my dues" so to speak on a tough one, and like you, I didn't subscribe that viewpoint since I didn't want tendinitis or carpal tunnel or whatever. You don't need a Taylor or Martin to find a decent guitar for a beginner, IMHO. A nice Epiphone or Fender will suffice for many of us early on.

I think the key for me is if the cheap whistle IS indeed a decent instrument and not totally unplayable and/or good only for melting down into scrap metal. In the case of my collection, many of the cheap ones are bad. However, a few of them aren't as bad as I once thought as my technique is better than when I bought or were given them years ago. I know the player has much to do with it, but skh hit on it with the question of whether the high-end whistles are worst sinking $ into. I do have the Burke on the way, and will likely enjoy it, but don't suppose I'll be buying many other high-end whistles. Of course, I may change my mind and want a Burke in every key, who knows? . . .

What I have to do now is figure out make three categories from my collection: Definitely Playable, Suitable for Weapons/Scrap-Metal Only, and Has Potential. I think I'm past the rank beginner point as I've played for awhile and am not at risk of being discouraged by bad instruments. And as others pointed out, I have to find which one has the sound I want, and I like the cheapo sound of Gen/Clares/Waltons/Oaks. I also have the fall-back of the Dixon and the Sweetones/Megs, which I can play reasonably well on a consistent basis and are in tune.

So I'll likely keep trying to find a good Gen/Clares/Waltons/Oak. Luckily, they're cheap, so I afford a bit of investigation here!

[Wombat]

I don't think that to be good an instrument has to be expensive. I do, however, think that, more often than not, you don't get more than what you pay for, though it is quite common to get a lot less than what you pay for. That goes for guitars and it goes for whistles.

I agree too that a good cheap instrument has great attraction. I like my Clarke originals and I hope to find good Generations one day. Unless you are a snob, a good cheap guitar is a pleasure to own and play; I have a few such alongside the Martins and Gibsons. But we shouldn't forget that our ability to tell which cheapies are worth buying or keeping improves considerably after we have learnt to play on a very good instrument. I've never found a good cheap concertina but I hope to one day; I believe those who say they exist.

From the point of view of playability and responsiveness, I couldn't think of a better whistle to improve one's playing than a Burke. But then there are Overtons and Sindts and Copelands and the whole world of wood. Most of us find it hard to stop once we get started.

[Whitmores75087]

Hi CJ, I'd bet those cheapies on Clips and Snips have been tweaked. The whistle makes a HUGE difference. If a whistel screeches at the high end only tweaking will fix it, playing well won't help. Also, the recording system plays a big part. I played on a St. Paddy's day float this year. As we set things up in a warehouse I was struck by what the sound people could do. A little reverb or whatever, and you feel like a sort of musical James Galway. (that last remark is called "Irish Bull". Another example: "Me father would turn over in his grave, if he were alive").

[BillChin]

Some of my conclusions (I'm sure others will draw different conclusions):
1) Cheap is very different from good when it comes to whistles. A $7 whistle may indeed be good. A $100 whistle may be bad (though unlikely if coming from an established maker, because they would not stay in business for long).

2) Practice is worth more than fancy equipment when it comes to whistles. This may not be true for guitars, violins, or other more complex instruments. However, whistles are simple instruments with no moving parts (other than sliding for tuning).

3) Having an expensive instrument can often motivate a person to practice more. The tactile feel alone may make the practice time that much more enjoyable.

4) There is no right or wrong answer. If a person has little time to practice but wants to spend $1000 on instruments that's okay in my book. If a person wants to spend 1000 hours on a $7 whistle, that is okay too. There is no moral or ethical right or wrong involved in any of this.

5) Keep in mind the main goal and that is FUN or PLEASURE. Few of us are going to be professionals or studio quality musicians. Don't let anyone make you feel guilty or inferior if you have an inexpensive instrument or not that much time to practice. Have fun, whatever choice you make.
+ Bill

[Cayden]

So why are whistles different? They aren't. If a cheap whistle really is good, it doesn't matter if it's cheap. If a whistle isn't good, whatever it cost, you won't learn to play as quickly on it as you will on a better instrument, nor will the virtuoso sound as good as on a better instrument.

I actually think they are, while I don't think a cheap whistle perse is a better one [the two sweetones I ventured to buy at some point were the most atrocious instruments I ever came across] I mostly play off the shelf Generations and an Oak and can't find any justification for a ten to twenty fold price increase in 'high end' whistles. I play a Sindt when playing out, because I have it but I wouldn't buy it again and when at home I would pick up the battered thirty year old generation because that one has the sound I want, I will never ever pick up the Sidnt which has to my ear a not very nice sound in the lower ocatave while the old Generation is balanced throughout the range.

For the record, after the influx of different whistles during the tourist season I have discussed this issue with various fine whistle players who all shared this opinion, one bought a O Briain improived and said that that was perfect at a easonable price of 20 euro, the Burke she had on loan for over a year couldn't touch that.

Maybe it's all due to the fact we only play a bit of diddly-ai on them but as yet I remain thoroughly unconvinced by the 'expensive' whistles.

[Wombat]

So why are whistles different? They aren't. If a cheap whistle really is good, it doesn't matter if it's cheap. If a whistle isn't good, whatever it cost, you won't learn to play as quickly on it as you will on a better instrument, nor will the virtuoso sound as good as on a better instrument.

I actually think they are, while I don't think a cheap whistle perse is a better one [the two sweetones I ventured to buy at some point were the most atrocious instruments I ever came across] I mostly play off the shelf Generations and an Oak and can't find any justification for a ten to twenty fold price increase in 'high end' whistles. I play a Sindt when playing out, because I have it but I wouldn't buy it again and when at home I would pick up the battered thirty year old generation because that one has the sound I want, I will never ever pick up the Sidnt which has to my ear a not very nice sound in the lower ocatave while the old Generation is balanced throughout the range.

For the record, after the influx of different whistles during the tourist season I have discussed this issue with various fine whistle players who all shared this opinion, one bought a O Briain improived and said that that was perfect at a easonable price of 20 euro, the Burke she had on loan for over a year couldn't touch that.

Maybe it's all due to the fact we only play a bit of diddly-ai on them but as yet I remain thoroughly unconvinced by the 'expensive' whistles.

If these instruments really are that good, then we don't have a disagreement. I don't have a 20 year old Generation and the ones I do have are unplayable in untweaked condition. I don't own a good cheap whistle of any sort, in any key, other than one old Clarke Original I'm fond of. I'll keep looking though.

On the other hand, if they aren't really that good then again we don't have a disagreement because I'm sure, if you came to think that, you'd change your mind. I have Burke and Sindt whistles I like better than whistles 3 times as expensive. But IMO, they are better whistles, quite independently of matters of price, which is how you feel about your Generation. They're better whistles, not just better value.

I keep wanting to come back to Cathal McConnell's remarks on his demonstration CD about overcoming shrillness in Generations. If you listen carefully, even Cathal loses control in one or two places. Now his techniques make for nice phrasing, but they could still be employed, together with other techniques, on a less shrill whistle. This doesn't prove anything conclusively of course. There might be other virtues McConnell sees that make the shrillness a worthwhile trade-off, but he doesn't say what they are. (If the only virtue is cheapness, that doesn't bear on our question.)

BTW, has anyone ever claimed that a cheap low D is superior to one of the more usual choices: Overton, Copeland, Reyburn, Burke? If not, why not? And does anyone claim that cheap flutes are better than expensive ones?

Edited to add this remark: when people do say they prefer cheap whistles, I really do believe them. I've heard wonderful music played on old Generations and I'd love to find a few good ones for myself.

[Zubivka]

3) Having an expensive instrument can often motivate a person to practice more. The tactile feel alone may make the practice time that much more enjoyable.

Gem of truth here.

A cheap whistle may sound like honey,
or a gale on a cliff, if it's your thing,
though I'm yet to find such a piece of cake, and eat it too.
Now some dislike sucking on plastic,
or banging one's teeth on metal,
or smelling brass or copper or tin, or even verdigris,
or the slippery feel of metals,
or just the soviet industrial looks...

In these cases, they often find some comfort in craftsmen whistles. Practicing is hard enough, so one doesn't need to make all of his music a masochistic experience.

If a craftsman's whistle makes you practice more, just forget the status issue.

When I say "status", this encompasses the issue of reverse snobism, too; like "my cheapie doesn't sound better but it looks like trash, proving I'm a real artist...". This is another pose, at least as bad as showing off with a rarity.
I'm not totally free of this: at times, I did enjoy outracing fancy MTB bikes with a clunker. I keep it, but I ride a "fancy bike" most now. I grew up to appreciate the comfort and ease more than the cheap ego kick. Well, my legs got older, too

Now, one may want a cheapy with a trashy sound to get back to the roots of popular pusic, which I can understand. However, it does remind of those "trash-rock" fans of the 90's who'd diss a group because "you can hear they know how to play".
A related issue is bragging about being a music illiterate, like "I can't read" and "what key? well, I just play it, dude..."

Btw, I insist on "craftsmen" whistles rather than "high-end" with all its marketing connotations. Yamaha (for instance) makes high-end, middle-range, students instruments as wel as cheapos. They're industrial, they need a range covering every niche.