Desperate for help dating antique Clarke and Generation whistles

[coreyf]

Hi everyone! I've recently started a collection of vintage whistles, and I'm particularly interested in making a small display of Clarke Originals throughout history.

Unfortunately, Clarke has been of no help in dating them, so I wanted to come here for help to see if anyone knows the history of the logo.

I also found an ancient Generation, all-brass with an embossed logo and lead mouthpiece. I did find an old post on this forum about it, but it wasn't quite clear on the date. Although Generation's website says it was founded in 1966, this seems to be older and some posts here have indicated that Generation made whistles before that time.

Lastly, I have a "Made in Germany" Old Calura, and it seems the internet is utterly devoid of information about these.

If anyone has any info on the dating of these, I would be eternally grateful!

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1174/FUUfqG.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6613/rpBXBJ.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/478/3mThPZ.jpg

[Mr.Gumby]

Generations possibly go back to the late 19th century, but at least to the early 20th. If you go by the lettering used on the earlier ones. I would put yours, broadly, in the first half or earliervdecades of the 20th century.

The Calura probably pre WW2.

Lastly, I have a "Made in Germany" Old Calura, and it seems the internet is utterly devoid of information about these.

At some point a history, or attempt at it, was online. The family making the Calura fled Germany pre-war and continued production in the US. I don't remember much in the way of detail but it was along those lines.

The Clarkes in the last pic post 1990s. The R.Clarke I am not sure of, there were several Robert Clarkes over time, the first one was making whistles during the second half of the 19th century and other Roberts came later but Dannatt's corporate 'history ' isn't particularly clear on any detail. If you haven't already you may still want to have a look at the book, without attaching too much authority to its content. There's some nuggets of useful information when reading between the lines.



FWIW, I am due a decluttering exercise and would happily part with a bunch of late 19th century brass whistles if the right offer comes along.

[coreyf]

Thank you! Do you know anything about the "R. Clarke" model?

Also, out of curiosity, where did you get this information. It's impossible to find anything online.

[coreyf]

I see you edited your last reply with more about the R Clarke, so ignore that question in my last one haha. I have seen stuff about that book and read on here that it's not particularly helpful for dating older models. Trust me, I've been searching every way I can for days at this point, including contacting Generation (they said they have no idea what this whistle is) and Clarke (no answer). I even reached out to some experts via email. So again, definitely curious to know how you came across all this knowledge! It's so helpful.

[Mr.Gumby]

The internet isn't the ultimate font of knowledge, sources exist outside it. And anyway, I obviously make all this stuff up as I go along.

Dannatt's book has some information, if you read between the lines. It shows, if anything, the history of Clarke's was chequered with several family members and licencees making and selling whistles under the Clarke name over time. Since the lattter part of the last century the company has changed hands a few times so it's all very fragmented.

As much as Dannatt (and Clarke) want to make it sound like they invented that type of whistle (and they may well have) and were the only ones making them (they definitely were not), they were actually made in a lot of places by other people. A lot of them were knocking about in central Europe. The Calura was one of several, perhaps many.



There are stacks of coloured whistles made at the time often for the toy market but not always. I have even seen photos of German made ones from the thirties, swastikas and all.



The Victorian age whistles are pretty common and a lot of them share a design but different branding (which can tell you something about how they were made and marketed). Generations are part of that line and the design of the logo over time can aid the dating of them.



You can tell from photos of players playing the ones with the plastic head when these were introduced (I have seen a photo from the late forties of a local player playing a plastic headed one). And we have the whistles. The early plastic heads seem to have retained the decorated tube of the early types, for a while at least.



(re-using some pics I posted before)

[coreyf]

Oh this is so great! Thanks for the info. I'm an amateur player (working very hard with high goals), and I really like the idea of collecting vintage whistles. The Clarke Original is actually my favorite, and after some time tweaking it following some instructions from this board, it's very playable. I had the idea of trying to make a little "History of Clarkes" display. Didn't realize there isn't too much info out there for tin whistle historians.

[Mr.Gumby]

FWIW Norman Dannatt, according to posts on this forum some twenty years ago, had an extensive collection of Clarkes. There may even have have been a page about it on the old C&F main site (I have a dim memory of something like it) but you'll have to trawl the Wayback machine and hope for the best.

The older Clarkes, or some of them, seem to be much better made than the later ones. The arched windway is such an ineffective, though easier to make, than the square edged ones that it is virtually useless in comparison. Talk of cutting corners. The effort/result ratio is just not very good
Mind you, I have one (the metal one in one of the pics above, that half decent but still not very enjoyable to play (the red anonymous one in the same pic, in E, is well made, efficient and a lovely one in comparison)

Very few accomplished contemporary whistleplayers play them, I can't think of coming across any in the past few decades playing Clarkes, apart from Peadar O"Riada and Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh in their Triur line up. There's ofcourse the lovely recordings of Willie Clancy from the sixties on the Seoda Cheoil lp that sound like they were done on a Clarke : Jolly banger/Ravelled hank of yarn

[coreyf]

Thanks again! I don't exclusively play my Clarke, but it's definitely got one of my favorite sounds of all 12 whistles I own. Whatever the wood block does, I like it a lot. After the tweaking, breath requirements really aren't much different from the others. A little more maybe, but still perfectly playable on all the tunes I know.

[Mr.Gumby]

There you go, courtesy of the Waybackmachine :

Norman Dannatt's collection

Norman Frederick Dannatt died on the 3d of September 2017.

[coreyf]

Wow thanks! Never knew about this.

[coreyf]

I didn't see your comment about decluttering until now. Could you share some pictures of the older whistles you're looking to get rid of? I don't have a large budget right now but I'd be interested to see if one or two catches my eye. Late 19th century is cool.