URGENT crack prevention advice needed!

[sverretheflute]

I just bought my second bamboo-like low whistle. Second because the first one cracked from top to bottom after only half an hour or less use. I bought a new anyway because I love the sound of it: https://soundcloud.com/sverremac/filipi ... -test-mono (The link is to my only recording of the first one before the crack…)

I now really have to quickly do the best to prevent a new disaster. I actually repaired the first one. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=99007 Pictures and story can be found in the link. But it never got back its magic sound. And the crack constantly needs more superglue to stop leakage.

I guess the reason for the last crack was that it’s imported to Norway from the very humid Philippines. Maybe also the material for the whistle is not stored long enough before the whistle was made. I fear the same tensions is in the new whistle.

First thing is not starting to use the whistle before doing something to prevent cracks. What I plan to do is this.
1. Have a lot of almond oil onto the surface.
2. Bind it, close to the sound hole, over the upper finger hole, at the middle of the whistle, and at the bottom.

I fear that the binding will alter the sound of the whistle. I use wood glue and nail polish on the thread. Maybe I overdo it a bit/lot.

I also wonder if there is anything I should be aware of concerning the oil and the binding combined. Can I use a lot of oil? Should a wait for oil to dry before binding? Or should I bind before applying oil? For how long should I wait before playing? And so on…

I keep the whistle in the bathroom now..., and hope I won't hear the loud crack before I've managed to do the right thing...

Any other advice, things I may haven’t thought of is very welcome!


Thank you a lot!

sverretheflute

[Feadoggie]

I guess the reason for the last crack was that it’s imported to Norway from the very humid Philippines. Maybe also the material for the whistle is not stored long enough before the whistle was made. I fear the same tensions is in the new whistle.

The whistle wants to be in the Philippines. It is accustomed to that environment. You may be trying to ward off the inevitable. You could move to the Philippines I guess.

The cane should have been treated when the whistle was being made if it was intended for export to colder, drier climes. Traveling half way around the world with the associated temperature, humidity and pressure changes is enough to cause stresses in the fibers. So I'd coat it and bind it up quick.

Here's some reading material you might want to consider. http://www.navaching.com/shaku/oil.html

Feadoggie

[sverretheflute]

Here's some reading material you might want to consider. http://www.navaching.com/shaku/oil.html

Thank you Feadoggie!

The essence in the article seems to be: "Get some polymerized tung oil. When you apply, wipe on a coating. Let set for 10-20 minutes, remove all you can get off with a cloth, turning frequently. Let dry for a full day--reapply if there are 'dry' places. Then polish...and polish and polish with a soft cloth. Done right your flute won't need any new stuff wiped on it for a few years."

From this I can't see why someone recommended me almond oil. I should rather use tung oil or varnish. In Norwegian tung oil is translated "wood oil" used for furniture and other things. I'm not sure if "polymerized" is important. Is the oil OK for the mouth while playing?

The process is said to take at least two days. I hope the whistle won't crack as I'm waiting for the oil to dry. I think I will wrap the whistle in kitchen plastic film for the night or the weekend until I can get the right oil. I hope that will prevent surprises.

Any more suggestions is welcome.

[Nanohedron]

Oils might help, but the issue here is humidity. Oils don't replace water, and they don't keep it from coming or going; at best they just slow the process. What I would do is tightly wrap a strong thread binding - carpet thread is close to unbreakable - around the whistle body. It only needs to be done on both ends and at a place or two in the middle. Keep your eye on it: If the binding starts to feel loose, then re-tighten it; after enough shrinkage, you shouldn't have to adjust the binding any more.

[sverretheflute]

Oils might help, but the issue here is humidity. Oils don't replace water, and they don't keep it from coming or going; at best they just slow the process. What I would do is tightly wrap a strong thread binding - carpet thread is close to unbreakable - around the whistle body. It only needs to be done on both ends and at a place or two in the middle. Keep your eye on it: If the binding starts to feel loose, then re-tighten it; after enough shrinkage, you shouldn't have to adjust the binding any more.

Thanks Nanohedron

What about varnish then? That would keep the humidity that's left inside the whistle? But maybe also alter the sound?

A serious question if I should use varnish, is if I should bind first.

As said I use glue in my bindings, that does not allow re-tighting, but maybe I could make new bindings then.

S.

[Nanohedron]

As said I use glue in my bindings, that does not allow re-tighting, but maybe I could make new bindings then.

Sorry; I read so quickly that I missed that detail. I wouldn't varnish or glue the binding until everything's settled. If you're just using a spot of glue to secure the binding, then that's easy enough to work around: carefully cut away the old, and wrap it anew.

Varnish may or may not alter the sound; that's an experiment you'll have to be willing to try out on your own, should you choose. But remember that even varnished woods are subject to humidity changes, so I think bindings are your best bet.

[sverretheflute]

If you're just using a spot of glue to secure the binding, then that's easy enough to work around.

Thanks again. I really don't know how to make a really tight binding without a lot of glue... Guess I have to search for a method.

You seem to persuade me not to use any coating, just bindings. The only thing is that the whisle is likely to be really at the edge of cracking even before I start to use it. If it's like it's cracked sister...

[Nanohedron]

If you're just using a spot of glue to secure the binding, then that's easy enough to work around.

Thanks again. I really don't know how to make a really tight binding without a lot of glue... Guess I have to search for a method.

There are various methods of what in English is called "whipping":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_knot

To be honest, I would just wrap and secure the business with basic knots, ignore the relative ugliness until things settle, and then go for the whipping for a nice, finished look.

You seem to persuade me not to use any coating, just bindings. The only thing is that the whisle is likely to be really at the edge of cracking even before I start to use it. If it's like it's cracked sister...

I'm not against oils or varnishes out of any general principle. I just want to caution that they won't eliminate issues of humidity or its lack. Whether you oil or varnish or leave it as-is, if you don't bind the whistle body you will have to keep your whistle in a humidified container. You may want to do so anyway, but if you don't, then binding's probably your best bet.

[sverretheflute]

Thanks once more, Nanohedron!

I think I can do this: https://youtu.be/DsWFlD-miSo

A indian(?) man in a similar video tells not to tighten the bindings firm because of different weather conditions. But I think I go for the very tight one, as the obvious danger for the whistle is to crack open.

Whether you oil or varnish or not, if you don't bind the whistle body...

No, it would never be only coating, I thought of coating and binding together. Varnish seems to be the only option for coating, and I tend to think it is a too high risk for sound to alter. Besides, as I understand it, it shouldn't be done before the whistle is settled. And the risk is now, not so much later.

Binding it is, and I may go for it already tonight. I will try to do it without any glue. And I won't play the whistle until I feel safe that the bindings stays tight. That is maybe a matter of several days?

S.

[Nanohedron]

I think I can do this: https://youtu.be/DsWFlD-miSo

There, that's the way I'd go. A lot less fiddly than whipping, that's for sure. Sensible, controllable, and easy to remember. I always wondered how they did that. Now I know!

A indian(?) man in a similar video tells not to tighten the bindings firm because of different weather conditions. But I think I go for the very tight one, as the obvious danger for the whistle is to crack open.

One video says tight, one says not so tight. Like you, I would go tight because it won't harm anything; a cylinder compressed equally in all directions upon itself is going to stay rock-solid, and even moreso against the binding in humid conditions.

Besides, as I understand it, [varnishing] shouldn't be done before the whistle is settled.

In this case I would agree.

Binding it is, and I may go for it already tonight. I will try to do it without any glue. And I won't play the whistle until I feel safe that the bindings stays tight. That is maybe a matter of several days?

I would do it as soon as you can. Seems to me that the shakuhachi binding method should require no glue at all, but keep checking it and tighten or re-wrap as needed.

As to not playing it for a while, I don't have any firm opinions on that. What is certain is that playing it would humidify the whistle, and to an extent - probably a small one - slow the overall shrinkage process. Whether that's important is up to you.

[sverretheflute]

Thank you so much Nanohedron for helping me to have a plan ready for the whistle!

The whistle is wrapped in plastic, midnight i Norway now, I guess it will be done tommorow.

I will give more information in this thread later. Well, if there is no more news, it's bad news.

[whistlecollector]

Thank you so much Nanohedron for helping me to have a plan ready for the whistle!

The whistle is wrapped in plastic, midnight i Norway now, I guess it will be done tommorow.

I will give more information in this thread later. Well, if there is no more news, it's bad news.

First, lest me express my sympathies about your first foray into Philippine bamboo whistles not turning out so well... I too have had a couple whistles from there, and the environment in the US (winter anyway) is less than ideal!

A random thought, and I'd appreciate commentary yea or nay from others here:

In the wonderful world of reeds, it's not uncommon for players to dunk their reeds in water before use and otherwise suck on the things like a chain smoker. All that slobber has got to work its way into the fibres, and certainly the reeds are more pliant afterward.

Any thoughts on this kind of treatment working for a whole bamboo whistle? Just dunk it in a pan of room temperature water for a while and dry it off. Can't be any worse than ordinary weather in the P.I.!

Any thoughts on storing such a whistle in a humidor? Or a case with one of those damp guitar snake things that's designed to keep the body of the guitar hydrated?

[Nanohedron]

Any thoughts on this kind of treatment working for a whole bamboo whistle? Just dunk it in a pan of room temperature water for a while and dry it off. Can't be any worse than ordinary weather in the P.I.!

Any thoughts on storing such a whistle in a humidor? Or a case with one of those damp guitar snake things that's designed to keep the body of the guitar hydrated?

In years past some Irish fluteplayers left their flutes to soak in the rain barrel - or so it is said. What with the perennially damp climate there, I don't see why such a bizarre practice would be necessary, so to be honest I find the story a little hard to take seriously. If it's true, I would strongly recommend against it.

Some people in dry times do indeed keep trad flutes in humidor-inspired containers, but if you don't play and clean every day to give your flute an airing, you will have to monitor for mildew. Some people have special rooms they keep humidified for the purpose, especially if they have lots of wooden instruments. The "damp guitar snake things" go by the brand name Dampit:



I do, as a matter of fact, indeed use these for my flute in winter: 2 guitar-sized for the head and body, 1 thinner fiddle-sized for the foot. Cut them to the length you need starting from the useless non-perforated end, pull out the inner sponge partway and cut that a bit shorter to accommodate the endcap's plug when you put it all back together, and as an option you can trim away the flange from the other cap (which you can see above). I do. I'm sure I'd be just as fine with it intact, and in fact it might make retrieval easier. I hadn't thought of it that way until now. Whatever floats your boat. Anyway, make sure to squeeze so the inner sponge isn't dripping wet, and make sure the outer surface is dry before inserting. This setup might last you two years, but I'd recommend a new set every year. I call 'em my flute worms. I went this route because the wee humidifier thinglet in the case was no match for winter indoor conditions where the humidity can drop below 10%. Plus that way I don't have to keep my flute in a damned plastic box. I get the impression that people think it's an eccentric practice, but I don't see why; seems entirely sensible to me, and it works great.

But since sverretheflute's whistle is likely made either of cane or bamboo, it is going to absorb and desorb far more quickly than resinous woods; what would take days for blackwood to gain or lose would take mere hours for bamboo, so without any binding, your humidity is going to be more immediately crucial. I don't like worrying, so that's why I say: first go with binding. Traditional bamboo woodwind makers do it for good reasons, I'd say.

[Feadoggie]

I do, as a matter of fact, indeed use these for my flute in winter: 2 guitar-sized for the head and body, 1 thinner fiddle-sized for the foot.

Yeah, I have a bunch of those Damp-it humidifiers for my stringed instruments and I have used them in flutes. The violin/mandolin size works for flutes IMO. And for flutes you can just as easily cut up a sponge, wet it, place it in a small plastic container (even something like a yogurt cup) with holes in the lid then place it and the flute in another sealed container and get the same results. However ....

But since sverretheflute's whistle is likely made either of cane or bamboo, it is going to absorb and desorb far more quickly than resinous woods

Right! That's the real issue here. And the damp-it idea, while a good idea, is likely too little too late So I would think you really want to stop the give and take of moisture as fast as possible. Sealing the surface is one way to do that. But .... the interior of the whistle would still need to be treated. Binding is a good, time tested tactic. It should keep possible splits from being catastrophic. I'd make the bindings very firm but not so tight as to want to crush the cane.

Feadoggie

[brewerpaul]

Can can be finicky and it may never be really stable. The maker may not have allowed the cane to dry properly or long enough, in which case trying to prevent cracks may be a lost cause. I agree that tight binding is your best bet. If small cracks do develop, you can fill them with cyanoacrylate glue.