Trying to Supercede the Pipers Grip

[ickabod]

Hello Everyone!

I am very new to whistling and to the site. So apologies in advance if unabashedly step on toes or wrinkle a few eye brows due to inexperience. Real quick, here is some background.

I just started playing this summer. I bought some cheapo saprano C and D whistles and loved playing them. Unfortunately, I had the plastic start peeling off leaving behind a sticky adhesive residue that left me with a sticky mess. Eventually I said the heck with the sticky whistles and elected to go with some nice non-stick instruments.

One whistle was a tuneable soprano C whistle from Susato. The other was a tuneable Dixon Low D whistle. The Low D whistle was certainly challenging at first. The playability of the Low D instrument felt awkward to me with the pipers grip. However, my hands are big enough that I am able to play it proficiently without the pipers grip. But, this does make my hand ache a little after the process. Despite the discomfort, the tone of the Low D really pushes me to keep playing. I’m happy with both whistles.

Just recently I came across the Low G Alto whistle. Based on my research, which is nothing more than a Youtube clip I just saw, this whistle appears to be a hybrid between the soprano “High D” vs. the Tenor “Low D”. Logic here would dictate that the gap on the low end of instrument is not as wide as it is on the Low D.

This brings me to my question(s). (My apologies if the question has been asked before):

Could I comfortably play the Low G whistle without the pipers grip? (I’m assuming that I could because I can play the Low D with just a little discomfort afterwards.)..

Is it a mistake to try and supercede the pipers grip? Should I seek to develop two different styles of play? One style for the soprano whistle and the other style utilizing the Pipers grip for “All” the Low Whistles.

Thanks in advance for any advice you would be willing to share.

[Steve Pribyl]

I use the piper's grip on all my whistles except for high g. But I'm a piper.

[Feadoggie]

Welcome to the neighborhood, ickabod.

What you do and how you play is really up to you and your personal comfort. There's no dogma to it. You are a fortunate player if you can play a low D without resorting to "the grip". So go for it if your fingers can handle it. If you can palm a basketball easily you may not need the piper's grip? Shaq probably doesn't use it.

There are two reasons most of us resort to the alternate grip. The first is the span from hole to hole as the whistles get longer in length and deeper in pitch. If you have long, flexible fingers you may not need it for that reason. The second reason is to actually cover and seal the holes since most whistles will have larger holes as the pitch goes lower. If the pads on the end joint of your fingers seal the holes on a low D you may not need to go there for that reason.

I start using the piper's grip on Bb whistles for the lower hand. I use the grip for both hands from low G whistles on down. The Low C whistle is about at my personal limit for the big whistles. I find the piper's grip very comfortable having developed arthritis in the fingers. It allows me to keep the fingers flatter.

It seems some people have more of an issue acclimating to the alternate grip than others. But once acclimated it really does not feel like two different grips. Both quickly become intuitive and you can find yourself going from one grip to the other without any conscious thought about it. I think it is a good technique to learn. Even if you can play a low D without it you may want to play a low, low Bb or a bass G whistle some day. The piper's grip makes it possible.

Feadoggie

[Mr.Nate]

Take a look at this low whistle tutorial.

http://www.kerrywhistles.com/


When I meet someone who tries to cover the holes with the tips of their fingers I tell them to "relax, it's a folk instrument, not a classical flute." I even relax my grip when I play a soprano whistle.

I hope this helps!

Nate

[farmerjones]

I have a Susato Low G, and it's small enough that piper's grip isn't needed. I still do it at times out of habit, especially if I've just played my low D. I think I could play the low D with a regular grip, but I find piper's grip makes it easier to cover the holes. It feels natural now, and as Feadoggie stated, I go between that and my high whistles using both grips without much trouble... ok, I tend to miss the holes sometimes when I do.

Piper's grip used to hurt my hands as well. I felt a lot of strain in the joint between my thumb and index finger, and I wasn't able to play for more than 10-15 minutes at a time. It went away after playing for a couple months, though. I think I just needed the time and practice to "stretch out". Now I can play my D for a long period of time without any discomfort. I'd say to just keep at it, and just put the whistle down for a 10 minute break if you feel discomfort before continuing.

[pancelticpiper]

As people are saying it's just whatever is most comfortable to you.

I'm a piper and I've always used "piper's grip" on the low hand of bigger whistles, but not on small ones. The point you bring up 'just where does one switch?' when one plays a gamut of different sizes is interesting. I don't think about it when I play, I just grab whatever size and play. But for sure on Soprano D and C I'll use the flats of the finger endjoints while on Low D and Low E I'll use "piper's grip".

Of course "piper's grip" is a bit of a misnomer, because (at least on the low hand) it's not the same as what is used on the actual pipe chanter. On uilleann pipes and highland pipes both, the low hand is held rather flat and the holes are sealed in a straight line running from the midjoint pad on the index finger to the endjoint pad on the little finger, so that (more or less) the midjoint pads of the index, middle, and ring fingers and the endjoint pad of the little finger are used.

Well a whistle only has 3 holes there, and the little finger isn't used, and the "piper's grip" that I (and many others) use on Low Whistle has the midjoint pads of the index and middle fingers but the endjoint pad of the ring finger.

With the upper hand, there's the thing where Highland pipers and uilleann pipers use different grips anyhow. Here the grip on the low whistle and uilleann chanter is more or less alike, using the same grip as the whistleplayer's bottom-hand so-called "piper's grip", the midjoint pads of the index and middle fingers and the endjoint pad of the ring finger.

My personal problem is that I played Highland pipes first and (wrongly) transferred my accustomed Highland upper-hand grip to the uilleann pipes (all three fingers using the endjoint pad). It's fine for Soprano whistles, but can cause hand strain on Low Whistles. It's just recently that I've been trying to learn the uilleann/low whistle "piper's grip" on low whistle... it's been a struggle, and I still can't seal the holes reliably. At least now the both-hands-the-same Low Whistle piper's grip has become the way I naturally put my hands on my Low Whistles whenever I pick it up, though at times I revert to the Highland pipe/Soprano Whistle upper-hand grip.

(There are some Highland pipers who use the midjoint pads on all three fingers for the upper-hand grip, still quite different from the uilleann piper's upperhand grip, which has an angle built into it.)

[Sirchronique]

I play anything low G or lower with a pipers grip. Second pad of first two fingers, first pad of the third, on both hands.

For A and Bb whistles I use a strange grip that I just started naturally using. Regular grip on top hand (first pad of every finger), and on the bottom hand I use the second pad of *all* the fingers.

For anything higher than Bb I just use a normal whistle grip, first pad of all fingers.

It's all about what is comfortable for you, though. When I first started on low D I tried out several grips. Pipers grip seems difficult and like something that one can't get used to at first. It's completely normal. After a few weeks of dedicated practice it might leave you wondering how you ever did it any other way to begin with! It gets to where it feels natural, at least for many people.

However, I would suggest spending a few weeks to get used to each of the grips you are considering. You won't be able to tell from just trying it once probably, because your fingers aren't used to covering the holes with the pipers grip. It might feel weird at first. So, give the other grips a good bit of time each, try them out, and then just stick with what's comfortable for you. We all have different sized hands, so might have different preferences.

I will say that pipers grip is often suggested to help people with small hands. My fingers are very long and narrow, but the pipers grip helped me a lot. Not necessarily with reach, but it's more comfortable on my entire hand and all fingers, it feels *much* more relaxed, and when I first started using it I noticed it really helped my very narrow fingers to cover the holes on the low D I started with, which had large holes. Before playing low D the lowest whistle I played was a Bb. So, I tried the top hand normal, bottom hand pipers grip at first, then transitioned into full pipers grip. Maybe it would be helpful for you too, to do some sort of transition method into pipers grip. The only way to know is to try!

[hans]

Could I comfortably play the Low G whistle without the pipers grip? (I’m assuming that I could because I can play the Low D with just a little discomfort afterwards.)..

Is it a mistake to try and supercede the pipers grip? Should I seek to develop two different styles of play? One style for the soprano whistle and the other style utilizing the Pipers grip for “All” the Low Whistles.

1. I'd think you will have little trouble using your endjoint pads on the low G whistle.

2. I see nothing wrong in using your endjoint pads on a low D, if you feel comfortable with it. But you may wish to experiment a bit. It does not matter using different grips for different whistles, in my experience.

I have large hands myself and prefer whenever possible to use the endjoint pads. I can do so on a low d, but it is less relaxed than using middle joint pads for R1 and R2 and endjoint pad for R3. For the left hand I can comfortably use the endjoint pads.

But if available I prefer low whistles which have their holes more ergonomically placed and use a small amount of offset. So on a low D I like hole 3 and hole 6 offset from the centre line (in opposite directions). On a low G I like a small offset for hole 6. I experimented with offsets on a low D, using a specially made body where I can rotate various holes. The best offset pattern I came up with is a small offset to the left for L3 (top hand), a small offset to the right for R3, and a small left rotation for R1, R2 and R3, which straightens the right hand wrist. So this resulted in an offset to the left for L3, R1 and R2. R3 is in line with L1 and L2. The offsets are about 3 or 4mm.

Feedback from the Bracker Whistle Tour (which has a low D with two bodies, one with inline holes, one with offset holes) suggests that the players who had adapted to piper's grip mostly did not like the offset holes, but preferred inline holes, even though it is possible to use the whistler's "piper's grip" with the offset hole pattern. Still I like to offer more ergonomic options when possible. This is even more relevant if you have a smaller than large hand size.

[Steve Bliven]

Gentlemen -

May I remind you all that on 12 May 2011 the following proclamation was issued:

I hereby declare that on the Chiffboard, piper's grip will be henceforth be referred to as ... Super-Duper Easy Grip.

Please use the correct terminology or the Immoderator will be perturbed.

Best wishes.

Steve

[tomcat]

Isn't it nice to know there's not just one way! Ahhhhh.

I use my pinky of my bottom hand on several low instruments. Works super for me. My low g whistle however I use a normal grip. Starting at low F I use a modified grip.

[bogman]

I use my pinky of my bottom hand on several low instruments. Works super for me. My low g whistle however I use a normal grip. Starting at low F I use a modified grip.

Me too. I don't understand why some folk with shorter fingers punish themselves with a big stretch when the pinky in hanging about there idle.

[robehickman]

Perhaps they find the pinky less agile, or outherwise don't want to re-learn anything. Or outherwise just haven't thourght about it.

[Feadoggie]

Or in some cases the "pinky" is too slim to cover and seal the hole. Super-Duper Easy grip is super it's duper and it is sooooooo easy (and comfortable).

Feadoggie

[Wanderer]

back when I started playing low whistle, there was no internet website to teach me to use the "piper's grip" (so-called). So I just used my finger pads, just like a high whistle. I found it most comfortable to use my pinkie on the lowest hole.

At first, my hands would ache a little...but they did when I first started learning high whistle too. Eventually, it got comfortable. When I started posting on this forum, years and years ago, someone told me I'd "never learn to play fast" with that grip. heh

There's a certain amount of dogma around whistle playing (or any instrument for that matter), and I concede that the piper's grip definitely helps a lot of people wrangle the instrument. But there's more than one way to skin that particular cat, and if you prefer playing with fingertip, have at it.

[greenspiderweb]

Gentlemen -

May I remind you all that on 12 May 2011 the following proclamation was issued:

I hereby declare that on the Chiffboard, piper's grip will be henceforth be referred to as ... Super-Duper Easy Grip.

Please use the correct terminology or the Immoderator will be perturbed.

Best wishes.

Steve

Oh well, never got that memo (or you know...could be I skipped over it), so I'll just say that I use my fingers flat on the low whistle wherever they fall to cover the holes comfortably. I really don't care what you call it, but I still think of it as piper's grip, and probably always will.

I also use it on the flute but only on the low hand, and standard grip on top-for flute only, just because it's more comfortable for me, and the stretch isn't as much on a conical D flute as it is on a cylindrical Low D whistle.

But, as another Chiffer pointed out, if you ever want to get a lower key than Low D for a whistle (Low C, B, Bb or below), then you will need piper's grip, unless you are just a big go-rilla, and have big foots too-or just Sasquatch, in other terms. Hmm, I'm a big go-rilla, and have big feet, but I only have average size male hands.

Anyway, on a Low D, it is so easy and comfortable, once you do learn it, that it just becomes second nature, and less stressful for you hands, wrists and arms, that it just makes sense to adapt to learning it. Whatever you call it. But do what feels best to your hands, etc, and which causes the least pain. And of course, just have fun and enjoy making music-that's the point of it all.