outdated info on C&F

[meneermalik]

Is it just me being over critical or does the Chiff & Fipple need a major update on whistle info? I havent been to other parts of the website but I find most of the info in the whistle section to be very much out of date. When you have the last updates listed as 2004 or 2005 that's pretty old info. One example is the John Sindt whistle. And recent reviews? Tuning problem on C natural? I'm fairly sure that's been corrected from the two Sindt whistles I've had. Also I think John only makes whistles in a couple of different keys now and not the whole spectrum almost. There's also a waiting list of 18 to 24 months for one of his whistles now and prices are about 75% more than the ones listed here.

That's just one example and there's tons throughout the whistle section. I'd have to say that if I was a beginner that a lot of this info would be useless or misleading.

Just a thought. Am I wrong and being over critical? Thoughts? Anyway we can get together and revive this site and update it?

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

I'd be down to help update some of the info.

[Dale]

No, you're not being overly critical. You're exactly right. (Speaking here as the person who put it all up, many years ago.) The website is hopelessly outdated. I have thought of it as an archive, more than anything else, in the last few years. You raise a point that some of the information, because it is outdated, would be misleading for a beginner.

During the years I put up all the material, I used FrontPage to create it. I still have that software, but, for reasons too dull to detail, it would take me quite some time to get the systems fired up to be able to do major updates.

Also, to be honest, as some veterans around here know, I got beyond my obsession with whistles some time ago, and I don't have the time to revamp the site. Not to be critical of others, but I went through a round of requests for help with that some time ago and got no offers. I completely understand that, by the way.

I would still love to see a completely new version of those three areas (cheap whistles, expensive whistles, and low whistles.) That could be done right here on this forum, and there are probably advantages to using this format rather than a static website. But, I just can't take it on. If anyone wants to coordinate it, I'll do what I can to help.

Dale

[Dale]

Well, I think the process would be to establish a forum (a subarea of the board) for whistle information. Within that, a post would be made to establish a thread for each known maker. Then each post would be developed with information about each "brand" of whistle. It could be updated on the fly.

I think this new area would probably need a sort of moderator/curator.

Dale

[nickthepiedpiper]

I have offered to do the updates for you in threads and I believe I sent you a PM... I believe that the length of time that the C&F web sitte has been up has gained it a reputation and high rankings in search engines and it is still used as the definitive source of information on whistles. There is a lot of information on these boards, but a newbie has a hard time finding it, so a web site update would be much more to the point. I would be happy to update the list of makers and request each of them to provide me with information that they would like shared about their whistles on chiff and fipple and updated photos etc.. I would need passwords and all that to update stuff and know what you are using for webhosting to see if my work would be compatable etc. But it needs to get done!

[Claus von Weiss]

Well, Nick, though probably well meant this coming from a maker of whistles himself could be seen as rather biased.

I personally prefer Dale's idea of a new forum here with a thread for every maker. This could become some kind of a very helpful "Whistleopedia".

Cheers
Claus

[ecohawk]

Sure some of the site could use updating.

Though I'm not usually this critical, and please don't take this as a criticism of you as I'm only trying to provide some accurate data about John Sindt. I just received an A whistle and a Bb tube that I ordered from John on 2/12/12. I recieved a B whistle from John in July. The Cnat, and the equivalent position on whistles in other keys, remains just as off (sharp) as it ever was. John likes "just" intonation so if you want that note you'll still need to either blow very softly or half hole, which is what John still suggests and is pretty easy to do. It's also a skill that everyone should master since you!ll need on other notes anyway.

I'd offer to help update the site too.

Ecohawk

[nickthepiedpiper]

I wasn't saying I'd attempt it solo, I'd heavily rely on input from others, I was simply offering my web designing skills and time, and yes as a maker it would be nice to be included in that list, but I wouldn't do anything on the site to promote my own instruments above others. we makers are pretty open with each other and not really in competition so much. I think I have demonstrated that by inviting all of my competition to my hometown to sell their whistles at Fipplefest. I know I'm not the only maker out there who wishes the site was updated. having the info on the board is a good idea, but not a replacement for the web site, unless you are going to take the info on the web site down permanently, otherwise please either update it, or let someone willing to do it update it. perhaps I could do the work and MTGuru could edit it and make sure there is no bias to anything?

[Mr.Gumby]

I don't think there's much point in trying twist Dale's arm about this. He's moved on and that's fair enough. Nothing lasts forever.

It would probably be a good idea to just ditch the whole section with outdated information. It won't be lost, people who want to check it or who feel nostalgic about it can use the waybackmachine and look at the pages on archive.org. Not a bother.

A forum would need very close monitoring if the information is going to be reasonably correct. Whistleplayers, especially beginning ones, can get really carried away waxing lyrical about their latest purchase and as it is the forums are littered with wildly varying opinions that are not always based on any knowledge or reasonable playing experience. Which means they supply information about what the poster thinks, not necessarily contain much in the way of useful information about the actual (workings of the) instrument.

[megapop]

Whistleplayers, especially beginning ones, can get really carried away waxing lyrical about their latest purchase and as it is the forums are littered with wildly varying opinions that are not always based on any knowledge or reasonable playing experience.

That's true and important. It's always hard to withstand the temptation to write an enthusiastic praise of your new whistle. I'd suggest the compromise to transfer the reviews (possibly even the existing outdated ones) to a special-purpose set up blog, where others can add comments concerning newer information; the main reviews would still be Dale's ones. This also would not be too much effort, you'd just need to register one and copy-paste all the stuff. And, it would be not as unclear as a loose forum, though maybe still confusing for beginners (which is probably still better than getting completely misled).

[Mr.Gumby]

It will always be tricky stuff though. Take for example threads asking about a whistle with specific characteristics. The first few replies are usually somewhat relevant answers to the question asked but as the thread goes on just about every whistle under the sun will get a mention. most of them not remotely resembling what the OP what asking after.

The original review section was set up by one person, Dale. Even if one person's opinions can be biased in certain ways, you can learn to 'read' them with a bit of experience. Dealing with a whole range of opinions from loads of people from different experience levels, it's anyone's guess what they're really saying.

At the end of the day, the only reliable way to pick a whistle is to hold it in your hand and play it. I have, over time, bought a number whistles that were universally praised here. They were all, in one way or another, disappointing and not worth keeping. There's a lesson there.

[Dale]

My suggestion would be that the main point be a more or less standardized entry for each whistle. Like:

Maker:
Contact information:
Website:
Keys available (with current prices):
Materials:

(pictures)


I really would not recommend cutting and pasting my reviews in, certainly not at as a matter of routine. I did those a long time ago. The products, in many cases, are updated and there are far more knowledgeable and experienced people out there.

I'm not even sure what I think about people posting "reviews" on these listings. The term implies something that most of us are not really capable of: a detailed, systematic evaluation. It's worth talking about.

Dale

[david_h]

Some people who I have suggested come here (the forum) and who Googled for it never got past the main C&F page because it was not obvious where the forum was and what they did find seemed dated. Would a new shorter home page with much of the existing site shunted off into an archive link work ?

There is a lot of good general advice on there that people on the forum sometimes forget to direct newbies too.

[I.D.10-t]

My suggestion would be that the main point be a more or less standardized entry for each whistle. Like:

Maker:
Contact information:
Website:
Keys available (with current prices):
Materials:

(pictures)


I really would not recommend cutting and pasting my reviews in, certainly not at as a matter of routine. I did those a long time ago. The products, in many cases, are updated and there are far more knowledgeable and experienced people out there.

I'm not even sure what I think about people posting "reviews" on these listings. The term implies something that most of us are not really capable of: a detailed, systematic evaluation. It's worth talking about.

Dale

Sounds like a good beginning of a whistle wiki. Even if old info is used, it would be corrected/deleted.

[Steve Bliven]

My suggestion would be that the main point be a more or less standardized entry for each whistle. Like:

Maker:
Contact information:
Website:
Keys available (with current prices):
Materials:

(pictures).....

That's only slightly expanded from what Jemtheflute has done with the list of wooden flute makers on a sticky on the Flute Forum. He provides the first three bits of info—and has had some difficulty keeping up with that. (Maybe there's more flute makers or they hide better.)

To provide the above info, either someone would have to be responsible for contacting the makers periodically to ensure that the info is up to date; or the makers could be responsible for maintaining their own sections. While several makers post here regularly, is there a sense that enough follow this Forum—and would be willing to keep their entries current—to have this be a viable option? Or is it possible to find a volunteer to build and maintain such a system?

I agree that much of the material Dale originally pulled together is of great interest to whistle-oriented archaeologists, but may have out-lived its shelf-life. However, without that info, I doubt that this forum would be anywhere near what it is today. So thanks to Dale for having the vision (or narrow focus) to set this all up and keeping us busy on rainy mornings like this.

Best wishes.

Steve