Musical Snobery

[jking]

Ive noticed it in session's and the odd time on the board here.There's a particular breed of player/player's that i would call musical snobs. My question is at what point does a player step over that threshold to "others arent worthy to play in my presence" type attitude. What set of circumstances create that type of musician....
1. I live, have lived or travelled in Ireland,therefore i am an ambassador for all that is right with trad music.
2. I have played for more than a few years and dont remember what it was like to be a lowly beginner.
3. "Thats not a generation...good day to you!"
4. Ive played with vinnie kilduff (any name throwing will do), seen vinnie kilduff, can spell vinnie kilduff etc etc

The list can go on. Its very easy to create self importance but most times it ends up being at the expense of others. We need to ask ourselves that if a session "sucked" because someone didnt play to those pure trad standards or was to enthusiastic with ornaments, are we playing music for the right reasons. To show off, to perform or to interact with fellow man/woman. Isnt that the real underlying question. Yes ive been in sessions and a guy walks in takes out a whistle and has absolutely no skill what so ever. Bad enough that no one can even try to play along. Those are not the people im writing about. Its the average player on the board for example that knows some tunes, is hungry to learn more but comes across a musical snob (see list 1-4) and is made to feel like someone whose stepped in dog crap.
This is not directed to anyone with regards to me but i have seen it happen to some on this board and other people in various sessions.

Anyway thats my rant and im sticking to it.
Jason

p.s feel free to add to the list

[Zubivka]

5. You shouldn't play this tune here. It's not Irish, it's [check one]cajun/breton/scottish/gypsy[/check].
6. Sheet music is a crutch for those... (blah-blah)
7. He tongues. It's not trad.
8. Is this a thumb hole on your gen ? Thumb holes are a crutch...
9. Your whistle looks like a recorder.
10. Yeah.. but you can see he's from *gasp* violin school: he used his pinkie.
11. Murphy's not proper beer. In Eirin, you see only Guinness.
12. He's good, he's Irish.
13. Chromatic boxes can't play ITM.
14. I know better
15. You can't properly ornament with a keyed flute.
16: Metal flute bad, but wood whistle bad.

NB: 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 actually heard in sessions.
The rest (and 14...) I mostly read here.
One gremlin I made up.

[Stu H]

Nice observations JKing - particularly with reference to some board members!

As a fellow newbie I've noticed it too.

I believe that the 'superior' attitute one occasionally comes across speaks volumes about the insecurity of the 'perpetrator' and we should do our best to ignore them - rising to the bait will only fuel their egotism.

My experiance is that usually this type carries on this attitude in the workplace - the classic lower managment know all - and at home.

Come on we've all met one!

Look on the bright side - we recognize them, they can only see themselves.

[Tak_the_whistler]

Good points, Zub.

I also noticed something somewhat slightly similar on the Web.

See, I seem to be getting a very nice bashing since when I opened up my page. Pretty much encouraging, too.

1) He thinks he opened a non-ITM oriented website for low whitles. Whistles are meant for ITM not for "all-genre".

2) Do what you like on your homepage; it's personal and I don't give a care what you do there; but I don't approve of your website.

well, 2) in fact been directly mentioned to me. Seems like some people are following the following rules ;

a) Don't have enough whistles? Don't think you can write a fair review.
b) Haven't listened to 300+ ITM recordings? Don't talk about Spillane like you know him.
c) Haven't played this low D and that low D yet? AND you think you opened a low-whistle oriented website?
d) Think low whistles are for jazz, fusion etc.? Play ITR first, then talk.
e) I played with XYZ in the pub ABC, and you haven't. See I have more authority than you.
f) I have more than you'll ever do -- be it whistles, writings, recordings and relationships.

And I didn't say I didn't approve of his webiste, but his mesage was plain; utter hatred and, probably, jealousy to some extent. I won't even start how I have this and that and he doesn't, but that would be repeating his stupidity -- I won't follow his steps. Funny thing is that he'll likely spend a fortune trying to acquire all the brands of whistles I have and then giving a "more ITM-related, squarer, fairer, better" low whistle reviews. Did I ever consider him my enemy or a rival in whistle reviewing? Not at all. Even from my point of view his reviews are way better; the difference is that mine's for all people, not only for ITM lovers. Nor am I interested in giving another reviews for all the whistles he owns. For one, I'm way too skint to purchase, or example, a Shaw low D---- C'mon, ppl, laugh....I know it's relatively cheap in the low whistle market!

I made a website solely for the sake of all music genre, not meant to be beneficial exclusively for ITM scene; and I'll neither approve or disapprove of his website the owner of which kindly diassproved of mine. Glad that he cast me out; I'm lukewarm I love ITM and the use of whistles therein, I ask what's wrong with that, then again I say I don't think whistles are purely meant for ITM

Can't I just enjoy whistles? Do I have to play ITM?
I listen to and play ITM so I guess there's no problem. He, however, thinks I shouldn't make a webpage of whistle reviews if I'm not wholly dedicated (to ITM or the style in ?lygo or ?nnis).

So, the whole point, in my humble opinion, comes down to f).

as to e), my sentiments exactly jking (the 4th point you mentioned).

[tuaz]

I’ve been reading the various threads raising issues abt “musical snobbery”, “Wandering Whistler’s musical style”, “who to emulate”, “the quality of the clips on clips and snips” etc, and would like to add my 2 cents’ worth of opinion.

I’ve held my tongue for a long time on these issues (which arise ever so often), because I’m not that good a whistler, nor do I love and understand Irish trad music as much as some of the other people on this board. My initial view was “who am I to comment on these issues? I have no right to pass judgment on other people’s playing. Let the experts and those who know better talk about it”. But now, I’m thinking, maybe I know enough, just barely enough, to voice my views as an outsider to the tradition.

My perspective is as a person who:

1. loves to play and listen to jazz and other improvisational music much more than to Irish trad music;
2. when she does listen to Irish “trad”, would prefer Bothy Band, Solas, Lunasa and Flook to geezer-type pure drop or even Cherish the Ladies (I do have some more-traditional CDs, though, and I like the stuff on the BBC Virtual Session);
3. frankly has no idea what the Clare (or any other regional) style of Irish trad is like when compared to some other region of Ireland, since I’m just listening to a few Irish bands or musicians I like;
4. plays other instruments more than she does the whistle, and treats her whistle as any other instrument with which to play improv music;
5. likes, however, when free, to learn how to play whistle the Irish trad way, because it’s a challenge, it keeps one’s fingers nimble, the tunes are fun (jigs and reels are fun fingering exercises!), and because Irish trad and its whistle technique is a significant part of the whistle repertoire

So what do I think?

1. I think even though I don’t really listen to much geezer type trad, the clips of respected players on the Transcriptions page of Steve J’s web site show me just how good they are, and they help me understand how that tune should sound like (in terms of rhythm and phrasing). It’s not a slavish copying thing; you just kind of get how that sort of tune should sound, where ornaments should go, etc. Even if you don’t have the speed, skill or technique yet to do it yourself, you can listen to some other player, and recognise if there’s something wrong with how that person’s playing. This goes for non-geezer but respected irish musicians like those in the bands I listed above - they may have fancier chords & more rockish rhythms backing them up on guitar, and maybe some are flashier in technique than certain people like, but they know their stuff;

2. I think if you want to play Irish trad, it would be good to get it, and not just play any old how. Like someone said on another thread, respect the tradition. Once you get it, you can choose to vary it, play the tune a diff way, fuse it with other music traditions if you wish, etc, but when you do you WILL recognise what you’re doing, you WILL understand why what you’re playing is a departure from the irish tradition. [note I’m not saying you HAVE to play Irish trad on your whistle - I don’t, most of the time - but if you’re playing irish trad tunes, don’t you want to understand how it should sound like, even if you can’t do it yourself, yet?]

3. I think, therefore, that just saying one should play as one feels, that there is no fixed style, that fixed-style people are all snobs, etc, may not be very helpful in the long run towards the budding player’s development and improvement.

4. I think that many clips of irish trad tunes on Clips and Snips don’t really help one understand the rhythm and phrasing for Irish trad (including mine).

5. That said, I do like the concept and idea of Clips and Snips as a friendly, non-threatening place for everyone, no matter their skill level, to post clips of their own playing, for fun. I like listening to fellow C&Fers sharing their playing with the whole community. Also, since my knowledge of irish trad tunes is really lacking, the site does help me get to know more tunes (I learn faster by listening than by reading scores). I think it is possible to extract just the tune and filter out not-so correct rhythm, phrasing, timing, IF (and therein lies my main concern) you’ve listened to enough good players to understand the difference.

6. So I am happy that the understanding for posting at Clips and Snips is that feedback (if any) should be private unless the poster expressly solicits public feedback on the C&F board. I don’t think it would be nice if everyone started posting publicly that so-and-so’s recent clip was terrible, he or she can’t play, etc, when public feedback was not solicited. That is just not the aim of the Clips and Snips site. Maybe clips on other sites, where the player purports to be offering tutorials, should be more stringently critiqued, I don’t know.

7. The main concern I have with Clips and Snips, is that some people may not know that some of the playing on the clips doesn’t properly reflect how the trad tunes in question should sound like. If they learn not just the tune, but also pick up wrong rhythm from that clip, then it’s a problem. In that respect, I agree with Ron Kiley’s post about his worries that he may be learning the wrong things because people don’t speak up.

8. I don’t know how the above problem can be solved, though, since I like the concept and aim of C&S.

OK, so I have no real answers, I’m still very much an outsider to the irish tradition, I don’t really have a burning desire to be a great irish trad player, and I still don’t play whistle all that well - sigh, if anyone wishes to slag me for butting into this debate, I accept that I have opened myself up to that.

But the above are my honest opinions.

[Bernie Ranson]

Hi Zubivka, you said,

7. He tongues. It's not trad.

Er, I've decided to make an effort to learn the whistle "properly". I play several other instruments, but I've only ever played the whistle for a few minutes at a time before. Now I have a new Shaw low D whistle and I'm enjoying getting familiar with it. I'm on day six of this mission, and I was feeling vaguely guilty last night because I don't seem to do tonguing. Now I read your implication that it isn't the traditional style anyway. Can you say more about this?

Bernie

[Cayden]

- sigh, if anyone wishes to slag me for butting into this debate, I accept that I have opened myself up to that.

But the above are my honest opinions.

Well said.

[GaryKelly]

Bernie... there seem to be opposing camps on the matter of tonguing in both whistle and flute. Some say do, some day don't, others say do it when it's appropriate to the flow and feel of the tune.

Grey Larsen in his mighty tome says that those who claim that "pure drop traditionalists never tongued" should listen more... his opinion is that the wise old elves used to tongue whistle and flute a lot more than some modern folks would have others believe.

There's a difference between tonguing and tooting though.

[Tak_the_whistler]

Bernie I think you've read it wrong..

I think Zub meant those people who criticise the person who tongues, because for those purists tonguing is not trad-style.
To tongue or not to tongue? I do and many ITM players do (even when neither we or they notice it), so don't worry. I'm not talking about the UP though :roll:

>Tuaz
I didn't pick on one particular reginal style. And as to respecting the tradition, I think it becomes to cause trouble when it sets itself up as a subconscious absolute standard in appreciating music (NOT ITM in particular).

but if you’re playing irish trad tunes, don’t you want to understand how it should sound like, even if you can’t do it yourself, yet?

I think I've been oversensitive, but I think on this point I must admit you're right. I do believe, however, there is an atmosphere or a tendency among the ITM players/listeners to be overcritical about those who don't stick to that rule.

[GaryKelly]

I do believe, however, there is an atmosphere or a tendency among the ITM players/listeners to be overcritical about those who don't stick to that rule.

Well, I'm still learning my instruments, and have a long way to go. In the early days, I used shake my head in wonder at the 'purists' who'd give strong advice about learning to 'play by ear' and listening to the masters, going to Ireland and immersing oneself in the music and such. It can be discouraging to rank beginners like meself and I used to think "the only way you lot are going to sound purely trad is to hop into a time-machine and go back a hundred or more years..."

But then, that's really kind of the point. "Traditional" means just that. And there are many worthy individuals who are busily and actively dedicated to preserving the Tradition. Anything worth preserving is worth preserving right, if you'll pardon my ghastly English. Whether it's The Changing of the Guard or folk music, for the 'traditionalist' it's about preservation...keeping it the way it was, for future generations to enjoy.

Let's face it, IrTrad was almost extinct until the 60's revival. More power to those who kept it alive, and are still keeping it alive.

So now I'm a little further down the road of my own musical journey, I no longer shake my head sadly when the 'purists' offer stern but well-meaning advice, even if it's not really applicable to me personally (as I said, I'm still learning what my instruments are capable of, and how to get the best out of them). I cannot foresee a time when I will make the bold claim that "I play traditional Irish music". I really don't think I have enough life left in me to undertake and master all the necessities, and I'm 44 this year.

I don't think it's fair to refer to "traditionalists" as snobs. Perhaps they might be criticised for over-zealousness at times, but they are after all attempting to preserve a culture, a history, a tangible and worthy thing.

While we might enjoy modern Irish music (I know I do) backed with, say, electric bass, keyboards and guitars, to the traditionalist, I have no doubt, it represents a dangerous trend and an erosion of the very thing they're dedicated to preserving.

[Tak_the_whistler]

Gary, thanks for the sincere criticism.

<i>But then, that's really kind of the point. "Traditional" means just that. And there are many worthy individuals who are busily and actively dedicated to preserving the Tradition...for the 'traditionalist' it's about preservation.</i>

Exactly, but what I've been saying is basically that *some* of them go too far. I've been told in an email that I'm a free-style, orgy-loving, non-genre non-determined chaotic mind and such, but I do tolerate those people, and I hope not all traditionalists are like that.

[GaryKelly]

Tak, I agree. The overzealous will often refuse to enjoy something simply for what it is, preferring instead to criticise what they *think* it should be. And that applies to many walks of life, not just music.

I hadn't intended to criticise you personally old chap; I could have picked other posts to quote from, but yours seemed most apt, since you mentioned "ITM players/listeners" being overcritical. I guess my reaction to that was, well, if you're an ITM player you should be playing ITM with the emphasis on the 'T', and if you're an ITM listener then you expect to hear the 'T' as well as the 'M'

I can imagine the shivers that run the length of classical purist spines when someone like Nigel Kennedy appears on stage with an electric violin and announces "Right mates, gonna play some Vivaldi, okay?" and then lets rip. Blimey, some LOTR fans got into a right kerfuffle about Galway playing the Hobbit's theme on the flute at the end of Return of the King!

And there's nothing wrong with orgies. It's just I've never been invited to one Bloody Romans, what have they ever done for us?

[Tak_the_whistler]

>Gary,

if you're an ITM player you should be playing ITM with the emphasis on the 'T', and if you're an ITM listener then you expect to hear the 'T' as well as the 'M'

yes, when appreciating ITM as ITM....wait, this sounds like you just put "The End" to this thread!!

[missy]

WHAT??? You mean there is only one accepted way and one accepted style of playing a whistle and all else is heresy???

Well, slap me silly, I thought the whistle was a "folk" instrument, not a voice in an orchestrated concert!!

As some of you know, I mainly play mountain dulcimer - the whistle is an "added" instrument for some songs. I've run into the same, ah, attitude in dulcimer players. When we teach, the very first thing we tell students is there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG WAY to play the instrument, there is just YOUR way. Making music that you enjoy is what it's all about. Sharing with people is what it's all about. Learning from others is what it's all about.

The best jam I ever sat in was at an Old Time festival. An older lady on a guitar, an upright bass, a dobro, and us two on dulcimer. We did some "traditional" stuff - then the lady goes off into '60's rock! THEN, the dobro player starts whispering chords to me, and we played "Nights in White Satin". Yep - learned Moody Blues at an Old Time festival from a dobro player. Now THAT'S music!!!!!

If I'm committing a sacrilage, well, it wouldn't be the first time. I don't remember signing a contract that the whistle would only be played a certain way and for certain music when I purchased it. If what I play is "wrong" well, don't buy our CD's, don't go to our website, and don't sit next to me in a jam.

But I bet I ENJOY myself a heck of a lot more than YOU do!!!!!


Missy

[fiddling_tenor]

10. Yeah.. but you can see he's from *gasp* violin school: he used his pinkie.

Yep. Heard that one. But there are times when its use helps me keep on tempo and makes bowing easier.

Whatever. I'm enjoying myself, and that's what really matters.