What should a flutemaker earn?

Irish Flute
21

The commercial Boehm flute market appears to be very competitive, price wise. For instance, were two similar flutes as made by competing manufacturers compared to one another, feature for feature, then as a rule it seems that if those two flutes are comparable, then they likely will have comparable prices, too. Moreover, inasmuch as that could effectively establish a competitive price point, as their perceived market value, any competitor to them apparently would need to provide a comparable flute at, or even below, that price point, or risk being overpriced. Now, at the top end of the Boehm flute market perhaps pricing could become more flexible, but perhaps the less expensive flutes could be the bread and butter of the industry.

Similarly, perhaps even in so rare a market as ITM flutes there could also exist a similar price consensus among flute makers, in effect, although perhaps there could naturally be more flexibility to ITM flute market pricing, as perhaps the total model diversity, as amongst all makers, could be great enough that fewer direct, feature for feature, comparisons could be made. Even with such flexibility, however, there likely are upper and lower limits to practical pricing, in that too low a price could not be sustainable, and that too high a price could be too exclusive. Therefore, it appears that ITM flute makers somehow need to broadly keep an eye on each other’s pricing strategies, as the tide which floats all ships, so to speak, and use that information to plan their budgets, in a way apparently similar as to what the commercial Boehm flute makers do.

Just give potential clients the necessary information about your Swiss bank account, and once they’ve deposited enough gold bars… :wink:

22

I was thinking about the comparison with artists, much the same as Jim.

When I worked as a painter, I wondered often about how to set the price of a painting. I usually decided by a combination of how many hours it took and how successful the finished work was. My works tended toward detailed realism, so they often took many hours, even months to complete. When I set a price I usually factored in how many hours I had spent because I believed it was fair to receive a very minimum hourly wage. Others probably thought my prices were too high. I got good reviews, but I didn’t sell a lot.

In reality, the value of art (or even consumer goods) has very little to do with the materials or labor involved. Value is mostly determined by the purchaser’s perceptions of its value. Here in the US, I don’t think most people buy art, which is sad given the number of people trying to sell their art. And when anyone can buy framed mass-produced “art” for $20 at Wal-Mart, it makes it harder to charge $2000 for a painting, no matter how good it is.

Now I work creating web sites and internet marketing. There’s still a lot of that artistic quality in my work, I still receive similar compliments about my work, and I still bill by the hour – at a higher hourly rate. What’s different is that more people are willing to pay me for my work now, probably because in most cases it’s helping them do something that will increase their incomes.

But I think there’s a significant difference between artists and flutemakers. Flutemakers are more like furniture makers or jewelers, because they make something you can use. Something about utilitarian objects makes us more willing to pay more for those that are very well-made. Maybe it’s harder to justify spending a lot for a painting that’s just going to hang on the wall. I suppose I could “use” it to impress my friends, but it’s not as strong an argument as needing a table to serve dinner on or a flute to play at gigs.

In terms of the finances, I’d rather be a good flute maker than a good painter.

23

I guess my answer might be ..‘you should earn as much as you think you need’, which will differ from maker to maker. Standards and costs of living vary across the world so what might be sufficient in Ireland might not support you in Scandanavia.

Knowing a little of the working circumstances of well known flute makers in Ireland like Hammy H. and Martin Doyle - both more or less work from shops attached to the house as far as I know. Obviously I’ve no way of knowing their ‘taxable income’ but they don’t live ostentatiously if you know what I mean. I would say they are doing better than someone on factory work but worse say than local doctor - perhaps around an average teachers income.

But of the future?? The problem with turning out good quality, well built instruments that last for decades is that there must be a limited market and sooner or later, there will be enough flutes sloshing around to satisfy everyones need.

24

Generally there is a relation between how long one has been doing this and how much money one earns. This is true with all instrument making of the hand made variety. As one gains more experience certain things such as carving a violin bridge, setting a bass bar or on a flute, tuning and voicing become faster and faster, with better results. It used to take me hours to voice a flute properly - now it is less than an hour.

Other steps such as standardizing a product, mass production techniques, etc. all lead to a better income. Its not unreasonable to expect a professional income from instrument making if one has been at it for a few decades or more.

25

I think wooden flutes, such as you folks make are underpriced. What would a purely artisan made metal flute cost… or any other wind instrument? For instance a named maker alto recorder would cost $2000… no keys etc so about the same amount of work I’d guess.

26

Supply and demand treeshark. If there was a larger demand for wooden flutes the price would go up. Not to say the price hasn’t been rising for a well made flute due to the economic situation most flute makers have raised their prices in recent years. Although, the demand is on the rise as well more people playing and listening to the music worldwide.

As far as Terry’s question I will not even pretend to have an answer for it, but I think Casey has a good point the longer you have been doing it the more money you will make as you gain a reputation and experience, same as most occupations really.

27

I’m not sure that’s true, 6 to 10 year waiting lists mean the demand is there for top quality instruments, and the market for ITM players must be on a par with recorder players. I dunno I suspect the reason is more historical than to do with demand. There is also not as much difference in cost between the really top flight instruments and the more workaday ones as you would expect.
Terry’s remark produced a moment of guilt as I have far better flutes than my prowess requires… my teacher plays a far less upmarket flute than I but sounds about 100 times better… :blush:

28

Although I’m sure it was not intended, the original question, “should”, implies a culture of entitlement. The matter of price relativity, mentioned just above, being an example. While flutemakers deserve immense respect, I’m unwilling to put a pricetag on that.

29

I guess it depends on how much the flute buyer can afford to spend.
shrug New flute ot textbooks? New flute? Textbooks? hm…

30

Hi Terry, well, you have a noble profession. I like what I do myself (literature professor) but I wish I could be a flutemaker: its artistic, enriching, and at same time the work of the artist, sculptor, architect, engineer, scientist and physicist all in one (and am I forgetting anything?). It’s probably - I hope - both passionate and zen. We can certainly see all of that come across in your website. So, from this point of view, you earn a lot!

I hope financially, that yourself and the other flutemakers we know and respect too around the world, make enough to continue your work in comfort.

Not too much comfort though, just enough pressure to keep you doing what we love you doing!

31

This thread is getting kind of long and I haven’t seen any numbers yet. So, I’ll play game by suggesting that if I were a flutemaker that had risen to the level of a Terry McGee, I’d be hoping to earn somewhere around $100,000 to $150,000 a year U.S. My understanding is many great luthiers earn less and certainly less than they could. Luthiery is not a profession that one can expect to easily earn a fortune in, but top work should be rewarded with a salary equal to a good position in government. etc. I once met a top guitar builder who said the key to earning money in his field was to learn not only to build really good guitars-but also to learn to build them FAST. I thought this guy really is the definition of a wise country gentleman.
BTW, I got a custom made 5 keyed blackwood flute with two headjoints from Terry in August (one semicircle and one rounded rectangle). Its the 5088 model and it is simply great. The flute is extremely comfortable and responsive. I wondered if I was being a little nutty in getting the two headjoints, but I’ve really enjoyed playing and comparing them. I lean toward the semicircle because I think it really brings out the superb overtones, but I also like the rectangle because its a little easier to play. Anyway, there is something in the saying that people can get carried away with worrying about their equipment and I already had a nice flute. But I also think every player reaches a point where they are ready to step up from a good to a really good flute. I think I had reached that point and my 5088 has not disappointed at all. Quite the opposite. Thanks Terry and all the best.

32

Terry, it’s easy. Just back the Roos tomorrow, they cover a 14 points handicap and bash the Pommies :smiley:

33

I’d be hoping to earn somewhere around $100,000 to $150,000 a year U.S.

This is way higher than what any of us make!!! Geesh!!!

34

Heh heh, that got Casey’s attention! And I’d guess he’s right.

Here’s a chart from one of our national newspapers showing what people in various occupations are earning. In Australian dollars of course, so not directly comparable (perhaps someone has a chart in USD?).

The Yellow curve is the average earnings in each industry, and the industries are set out in that order. The blue curve shows you that if you are at the bottom of the business, it doesn’t matter all that much which industry you work in! The pink curve shows that in some industries you can earn an awful lot more than in others. Note that the top lawyers earn a lot more than the average in their field. And the pink and blue curves aren’t the extremes - they are also average earnings of high flyers and those at the bottom.

The first category (extreme left) shows the average wage in Australia, about $84,000. That currently translates as USD $55,549. Note that everyone from “Property and Real Estate” on towards the right is earning less than that; those to the left are earning more.

Presumably we should allow a similar vertical spread for flute makers. A “top flutemaker” (whatever that is!) should expect to earn substantially more than “yer average flutemaker”, while your “bottom end” flute maker should probably expect to be somewhere along that blue line. (Ha, or starve to death, more likely!)

So our graph poses us a few questions.

Where along that list of categories should we place flutemakers?(Astonishing, isn’t it, that the newspaper report hasn’t slotted us in already!) In the simplest way of looking at it, should a flute maker expect to earn more or less than the average wage?

Once we’ve placed ourselves, what ratio of earning seems reasonable between bottom and top end makers?

Which then of course begs the question, how would we tell where we should be on that vertical ladder?

I should hasten to assure that this is just an amusing exercise - I’m not planning to toss in flutemaking for a last-minute attempt to become a top executive! Those who have pointed out above the job-satisfaction aspects are spot on - in my many reincarnations, I’ve never found anything that exercises the mind and satisfies the soul like flutemaking!

Terry

35

Two very respected flutemakers seem to suggest my figures were pretty far out of line and I accept that. But maybe I did not express myself all that clearly. I was not guessing how much any one or an average flutemaker earns. I have no way of knowing that. But I do know that there are makers who have very long waiting lists and more than a couple who have seen a flute they just delivered resold for a significantly higher price. These makers could get more for their instruments. I guess there are different reasons they don’t–but suspect at least some don’t want to seem greedy. For builders in that category, I don’t think pricing their product to give an income in the range I suggested was so crazy. Its taken years and a lot of skill for them to get there.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.

36

Two very respected flutemakers seem to suggest my figures were pretty far out of line and I accept that. But maybe I did not express myself all that clearly. I was not guessing how much any one or an average flutemaker earns. I have no way of knowing that. But I do know that there are makers who have very long waiting lists and more than a couple who have seen a flute they just delivered resold for a significantly higher price. These makers could get more for their instruments. I guess there are different reasons they don’t–but suspect at least some don’t want to seem greedy. For builders in that category, I don’t think pricing their product to give an income in the range I suggested was so crazy. Its taken years and a lot of skill for them to get there.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.

37

Certainly no disrespect detected here, libraryman, and compliment accepted!

I suspect you’re right - part of the problem is that we don’t work to maximise our income. Too much time here spent playing around with potential new models, working on improving flutes that nobody is complaining about, developing measurement and design systems, answering non-customer enquiries about old flutes, flute repair methods, etc, researching 19th century instruments and makers etc. All “non-productive”, but of course an important part of the “job satisfaction” input.

It would be interesting to know what one could and should earn though!

Terry

38

Well, Mr. McGee, inasmuch as there could be such a thing as a flute market, then perhaps it all comes down to just what such a market could bear.

If you ask too little, then likely you’ll get swamped, and if you ask too much, then perhaps your flute making could become as history.

It’s all well and good that you could respond to inquiry in regard to antique flutes, sir, but perhaps you could now proceed as based on your own reputation.

McGee flutes, after all, are McGee flutes.

:wink:

39

That’s for us to know and you to guess…

40

It’s a great game, though - guessing what others make…
I worked as a street performer for many years. My first festival was in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the crowds were legion. 10,000 people or more a night passed by our circle. The papers calculated that, based on the crowds and the typical donation, we were making 1000$ PER NIGHT. Next day, one of the buskers was asked what he planned to do with his money, and the fellow told the papers that he planned to put the majority into fixing his boat (he planned on retiring there). The next day the papers proclaimed that Buskers Owned Yachts.
(sigh). Don’t I wish.
In similar frame, I imagine that the typical flutier makes his keyless flutes in batches of 10 or so, with the average batch taking, say, three weeks from start to finish. Given that he does his work in his basement, and doesn’t pay overhead above what he needs to live, we can discount that part. Wood per batch probably comes to 400$ at the top end, equipment wear and tear comes to 300$, so lets call it 1000$ per batch. If the flutes are sold for 1500$ apiece, we have a net profit per batch of 14,000$ per three week period. at 12 batches per year, we end up with 168,000$ / year.
Terry - what are you doing with all that money?
Best - Ed