I’d like to hear Harry’s thoughts on this, but will gladly interject my own until he does.
The thing is, holding one long note and adding a bit of vibrato does not take a lot of skill. It is well within the reach of a first year player. If you come on a board with players of Harry’s calibre, you can’t expect them to be in awe of such recordings. That isn’t to say that the player on the recording isn’t capable of more technically challenging playing, just that it isn’t demonstrated here. These New Age type recordings are not aimed at pipers, or people who are interested in piping, so its hard to get pipers interested in them just because there are pipes “included in the mix” somewhere.
You have mentioned some names of other newer pipers who don’t necessarily play trad, and that’s okay if they are taking the playing of pipes to new levels, but if the artistry of a recording is in the skillfull arrangements of the synths, its hardly a bold step forward for piping, is it?
Possibly what is being got at here is the on going rise of mediocrity.
What becomes the benchmark is what pleases most of the public most of the time. Not standards set by practitioners of the art.
The rise of the mediocre can be seen throughout our society, as has pointed out by smarter people than me.
Although we cannot hope to be isolated from the world, we may need to work hard to stop our standards becoming diluted and dictated by what sells records or sometimes by what get the best response from the audience.
I have played in sessions with Troy many years ago. He is a fine fellow and a good piper. I hope his career in music continues successfully.
I don’t think Harry is being arrogant and he is definitely not being mediocre.
In answer to the inevitable charge of ‘purism’ (“Those retarded neo-nazi bastards never want it to change”!) I would point out that I very firmly included the input of individuals in my brief allusion to the mechanics of the art of piping. Am I really being unclear or doesn’t this suggest strongly the reality that is that people effect change constantly in piping? People are what ITM has always needed, imaginative, original and courageous ones being as desirable as they are in other fields.
My criticisms of some modern piping and ITM in general are not solely based on an aversion to change by any means. As someone who at least knows their arse from their elbow on the subject I recognise the power of change and how profound it can be in ITM.
I have to question the reasons for change though. I will not accept it blindly and I will not accept that we are powerless to plot it’s course for better and worse (bit of a cop out if we think it innevitable and one directional really). Change in itself is simply not always good, and it is never just black and white (which is why the famously tired ‘innovator’ vs ‘purist’ debate was never going to come to anything more than a mutual penis measuring excercise).
My criticisms are grounded in evaluating piping along artistic lines: inspiration, pursuit of piping knowledge, personal style and flair, individuality, coherence, interpretation and indeed innovation (that’s real innovation, not smart arsery or clichés designed to appeal to as many of the buying public as possible). That is the piping tradition that I know at it’s best. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to aspire to it at it’s best.
Here’s a thought: Which represents a more innovative process, Johnny Doran completely turning the instrument on it’s head to create music of stunning and unmistakable complexity or Davy Spillane playing relatively safe Doran-esque-ish music with a full electric band?
No free Mars bar for the geniuses who get that one correct. I know which strikes me as the greater accomplishment. How did Doran do it? Does anybody want to know any more (and did they really ever want/try to know)?
I haven’t listened to the aforementioned sound clip of the piper and organ combo or whatever it is, so I am not referring to it in any of the above. I’ve loads of things that I really want to listen too lined up if only I could get the time! Damn this infernal international network, “wonder of the age” my rrrrrrrs.
Wild oily colors attract certain types of viewers–and they call it progress,
but the details in fine art still confounds those who have a deeper
appreciation for black and white. Isn’t the older stuff more progressive?
The thing is, holding one long note and adding a bit of vibrato does not take a lot of skill. It is well within the reach of a first year player. If you come on a board with players of Harry’s calibre, you can’t expect them to be in awe of such recordings. That isn’t to say that the player on the recording isn’t capable of more technically challenging playing, just that it isn’t demonstrated here.
Personally I disagree DJM. I’ve seen Troy play and heard his ITM recordings and I think his skill on the instrument shows through on this small snippet. What I mean is that the he demonstrates the most fundamental ability any musician should have which only comes with experience and skill through hard work and that is the ability to express oneself fluidly in whatever style you play and not (might I add) the ability to TRY and express oneself which most people can only manage to achieve particularly those first year players you mention. compare Clips n snips.
Maybe Troy is of Harry’s calibre, I don’t know I’ve never heard Harry play, but maybe Troy is willing to experiment in different ways. Sure the list of big names he’s worked with is pretty impressive (check out his web site), maybe these people are more willing to recognise and appreciate his ability.
Any good of great player will have experimented musically. There’s an important difference to be made between the age old art of experimenting with meoldy, timing, emphasis, punctuaution, style and your instrument generally and simply experimenting with the backing on a peice of melody of whatever quality.
Good or great musicianship is an on-going process and in Irish piping terms is well demonstrated by the process of experimentation embarked upon by Willie Clancy. If you can learn to hear the levels of detail lavished in layers into that man’s music and then compare it to performances of his from other times where he is displaying different influences then it will give you some idea of just how much active listening and work that he did.
Personally I don’t hear any great detail or expression in the sound clip (which I have since listened to). As I wouldn’t particularly enjoy tearing the peice of playing apart I would be inclined to call it simply ‘Commercial Piping’. Well outside my field of interest, but a good example for discussion and a comparison of approach.
I think we may be coming from opposite ends of the piping spectrum, I wouldn’t expect Maddy Prior (he has co-produced her last four albums), Roy Harper, Alan Stivell, Del Amitri, Midge Ure and many more… to know very much about the piping tradition that I am referring to. They may know a lot about recording, session work and musicians etc. but being successful working musicians (albeit in vaugely related fields in some cases) doesn’t make them any experts on the tradition of uilleann piping of course.
One thing that ITM needs to develope is the ability to look at itself, criticise itself (in an informed way… there is plenty of industry based bullshitting going on) and generally accept itself in all it’s complexity as modes of expression good and not-so-good. I am all for the small but sensible school of thought that suggests introducing sub categories into ITM as they do in other musics (e.g. traditional folk instrumental, Irish fusion, Irish world beat etc…). It seems that people are losing track of what it actually is that they are listening to these days, it all gets lumped in together despite profound differences in content, approach and sensibilities present. The problem being there that some artists involved think that they and their approach have exclusive rights to Irish music and the direction that it MUST take. The desire for exclusive ownership and control of whatever it is that we have will always be a major stumbling block untill a level of acceptance and real self confidence and artistic self determination is built up.
And BTW Maw, I think that you’ll find your blind acceptance of how right you are more arrogant than I am intending to be. Chill out and chat.
Sorry, need to clarify my past post. The “yuck” was indeed for Riverdance, as Ausdag so aptly obsered. It was nor ever will be my intention to bash another piper, especially one of Spillane’s callibre. It is just personal opinion (we are allowed to have those last time I checked) that riverdance is a little too new age-ish for me, therefore I did not like it. And sorry Reedman for your misinterpretation, also I am ages away from being able to play tunes for Clips and Snips.
As one of those young people, I personally did not get into ITM through any “pop” medium. I found it through the Irish side of my family and started playing it soon after my mother passed away 2 years ago when I was 17. It was one of the few things that cheered me up and kept me going (along with playing Rachmaninoff, Liszt and Chopin on the piano constantly). So there ya go folks, ITM is a certified medical miracle!
I have only seen Spillane in concert once, but he played only ITM, nothing New Age-ish or jazzy all night. I don’t know if all his shows are like this, or if he tailored the show to the audience, but I have only heard the one album of his that was ITM. The rest of his CDs I’ve heard had nothing to do with his show. I wonder why such a dichotomy.
This is one of the better descriptions of the difference between ITM and other forms of IM (especially piping) that I have read on this forum to date. It is easy for the non-intiated to lose, or never gain sight of these distinctions, as I often tend to do.
Seems like part of what is happening is that an instrument that existed only in one tiny corner of the world playing a very distinct and traditional type of music has left Ireland. Imagine if purists insisted that the guitar be reserved only for classical compositions of the 19th century. The Irish pipes have too much color and flavor for them to remain the property of ITM purists. I think they can be compared in their “virtuosic” potential to the oboe, the violin, and the electric guitar in their ability to provoke great depths of emotion/passion, and the secret is out! To the disgust of some and the delight of many thousands more, expect the pipes to appear in symphonies, soundtracks, jazz clubs… I’d love to hear a symphony for chorale, orchestra and pipes. Maybe Brendan McKinney with a full album instead of the single cut on the Chicago Irish music CD!!
As for ITM, I expect it will be the standard to which the best pipers are trained, much as classical music is often the foundation for the best guitarists, keyboardists, etc. The pipes sound like the pipes in large part because of the ornamentation, best learned in ITM. But no great instrument like the pipes will go unchanged.
Seems like part of what is happening is that an instrument that existed only in one tiny corner of the world playing a very distinct and traditional type of music has left Ireland. Imagine if purists insisted that the guitar be reserved only for classical compositions of the 19th century. The Irish pipes have too much color and flavor for them to remain the property of ITM purists. I think they can be compared in their “virtuosic” potential to the oboe, the violin, and the electric guitar in their ability to provoke great depths of emotion/passion, and the secret is out! To the disgust of some and the delight of many thousands more, expect the pipes to appear in symphonies, soundtracks, jazz clubs… I’d love to hear a symphony for chorale, orchestra and pipes. Maybe Brendan McKinney with a full album instead of the single cut on the Chicago Irish music CD!!
As for ITM, I expect it will be the standard to which the best pipers are trained, much as classical music is often the foundation for the best guitarists, keyboardists, etc. The pipes sound like the pipes in large part because of the ornamentation, best learned in ITM. But no great instrument like the pipes will go unchanged.
The UPs are universely recognised as having left here some time ago. I don’t think that even the piping idiot who would admit to espousing the rediculously unrealistic title ‘purist’ would deny the existence of one Patrick J. Touhey, one Tom Busby, one Mike Carney etc…
I don’t percieve any signifigant geographical discrimination. The evident differences are a matter of sensibilities and tastes (or lack of tastes depending on your politics) which exist unhibited across international boundries. As I said, the conflict arises when the label attached to whatever is trying to be sold says only “Irish piping” or only 'Irish traditional Music" or whatever. This is where things start to become murky for all concerned.
It seems that the pipes have very much left Ireland, but that an Irish theme label is quite the selling point for the time being. Or maybe the pipes are demanding to be surgically removed by those who are ‘in the know’?
Ya know Peter, you’re right. EVERY time I hear an old Ennis (or any other older piping recording) recording, I immediately think of Riverdance, the Afro-Celt Soundsystem, and all of Spillane’s recordings as being exactly the same! Re-read what was said. It’s not the level of musicianship, but rather the synth washes and such that was being compared.
Well, I listened to the music at the link to see what all the fuss was about.
Yes, it’s heavy on the synth, heavy on the vibrato and reverb, etc.
So what?
If you don’t like it, there’s a little “X” in the upper right hand corner of the screen - click it and the source of your consternation will magically (and immediately) disappear.
As for the “pure drop” folks here, an event occured a few years’ back in Denver, Colorado that might give you pause to reflect on your “it’s not ‘true’ IR Trad until I say so” attitudes:
Paddy Keenan was playing before a small (very small) audience in Denver… there couldn’t have been 50 people in the house. The sad fact is, far too few people even know who he is, and yet I daresay that most folks would speak of his contributions to the art in revered tones.
On this particular night, Paddy was playing away, and the tunes were quite enjoyable. At one point, he was telling the story of an air he was about to play. Then, just prior to beginning, he instructed the sound man to ‘turn up the reverb, please’. Then he began to fine-tune his drones… and then requested, “turn it up more, please… more… just turn it all the way up”.
So - do you ‘pure droppers’ think any less of Paddy because he used a full shot of reverb?
As I said - if you don’t like what you’re hearing, turn it off.
I think it was in ‘An Piobaire’ recently where there was an article which referenced a review of Touhey’s piping … and in the article the reviewer basically crucified Patsy for not playing in pure drop form.
As for me, one of my favorite pipers to listen to is Liam O’Flynn, a man who learned from two of the ‘kings’ of Irish pipering. There are, I believe, a fair number of pipers / traditionalists who don’t care for Liam’s piping style. The fact that he has recorded with gasp!orchestras! leaves them cold for some reason. To me, it simply points out the wide and practical use of the instrument itself. Why pigeon-hole it into one very small category that is typically requested only on St. Patrick’s day or the like?
PS: I enjoyed the music that was linked - thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Perhaps a warning should be given when someone chooses to introduce a new album on this forum to describe what it is that is being announced, e.g. if maw had said something like, “Oh, boy! Troy Donockley has just released a new CD full of very emotional New Age sounds on UPs that I love,” then eveyone would be able to determine for themselves whether they wanted to look any further. Similarly, one could announce a new CD as C&W with UPs, HM with UPs, Pure Drop with UPs, Yodelling with UPs, etc.
There is nowhere on this site that specifies that only ITM is to be discussed, so it would probably help us to communicate with each other more equitably by telling readers up front what sort of music you are trying to introduce them to.
I would be interested in reading that article (which I am suprised to have no recollection of) to compare it’s contents with your colourful outline of it. Even if that was the case it in no way represents any general or even slight minority feeling in NPU or the pages of An Piobaire I can assure you.
Not that this speaks for all of it’s members or comtributors, but it might be worth remebering that NPU published a groundbreaking analysis of Touhey’s music and a tape of his (at the time) very hard to get recordings. This study of his playing style represents the most in-depth study of a piper’s style to date.
The editior of An Piobaire is not in the idiotic business of condemning things simply because he does not find them ‘pure drop’ (which I take to mean in a traditional mode, with style, and the required amount of personal involvement with the material etc. The term ‘pure drop’ is of course relative to one’s own idea of what that all is (and/or isn’t), which is why it is often used erroniously in my opinion).
There are a fair number of pipers/traditionalists who don’t care for two of the pipers/traditionalists that Liam O’Flynn learned from (he actually learned from more than two). And he wasn’t the first piper by any means to play outside what is now labelled ‘tradition’ by a long stretch of decades.
So, if we are not to categorise ITM should we consider it all ‘pure drop’ to use your own, pigeon hole term?
