I learned from my band instructor (yes, I know that’s not ITM) and from my whistle teacher (ITM) that tonguing and slurring are equally important. While most notes are not tongued, some need to be. The slurs help the flow and keeps tunes smooth, and tonguing helps emphasize and articulate parts. Without both a tune can be tense & bumpy, or bland and uninteresting.
Here is a clip of Seamus Ennis playing the [New] Copperplate, I believe on a Generation F whistle.
In ITM it seems that I hear accented notes slurred into and off-beats tongued or played staccato. I sometimes suspect that this is because note duration (rather than volume) is the most important form of stress.
I was about to post something like that. 
I want to add though that tonguing doesn’t have to be very “dry” like a “tuh”. A soft “duh” (almost like saying “la” with the tongue) will usually sound better and be easier to pull off on any wind instrument. A lot of learning musicians will give up on tonguing because “tuh” just sounds too ‘artificial’, almost like a bad synthetizer.
I would love to post a clip but it’ll take me awhile to figure out all that. (technologically challenged)
Essentially, LAWhistler, I am agreeing with you that tongueing is an important part of playing the whistle. I use it in many hornpipes, and I do use it (sparingly) in reels, jigs, etc. Only because it is easy to overdo it and it cuts up the tune and makes it sound less smooth (if you will).
Personally I’m fond of tongueing 
Thanks Bloomfield, great clip. I had never heard Seamus Ennis play whistle, only pipes. He certainly is spare with the tounging. I think he may be substituting a “huff” of air and hard fingering to articulate phrases, my slow downer will tell me more when I get a minute. As well as a “duh” tongue for the beginning of a phrase. Fascinating! Gale, I agree that too much can spoil the flow. Interesting though, I took a week long workshop with Mary Bergin. Not only does she tongue practically constantly, but uses the hard “t” rather than the ‘d’ My teacher studied with her in the 80’s and he came away using just a little less than she, and with a softer “d”. I guess as long as you get the point across musically, huh? lol
I would love a week long course with Mary Bergen. Or any of the great ones.
My whistle teacher was (& still is) Welsh. He is a brilliant flute player and also plays the Welsh bagpipes. Neat guy. Interesting that he promotes the tongueing so much, as he can’t possibly use it as much with his other instruments.
He was always showing us different styles, and encouraging us to develop our own. He played us plenty of recordings of whistle players. Each one had a different combination of tongueing and other articulation. He would bring experienced whistlers to class on occasion to teach us new ideas and to expose us to a different style of both teaching and playing.
I think the majority of our graduating class ( 8 ), after about 3 years of his tutoring, all use tongueing but with discretion. Keeping in mind that the flow of the tune can be enhanced or completely changed with just the flick of a tongue.
Hi Ceili,
On this glottal stop issue. I use what I’ve called glottal stop, but I use the back of my throat to stop off the air. It happens almost inadvertently when I play without tongueing. And when I do your whistle test, I also block the air flow for a nanosecond with my throat. I know I’m doing it because when the room is quiet I can hear a slight blip echoing down there.
Maybe you could do this for me. Do your whistle test with ear plugs in and see if you can hear a slight sound coming from your throat.
Tom.
Thanks Tom, for reminding me it is actually glottal stop, it was a technique that I was taught many years ago when learning to play the fife.
You are right about the closing off of the back of the throat. I do exactly the same thing, I didn’t mention this because I thought that I may be the only one who does it. I put ear plugs in at home quite often to listen to the undertones my whistles make; try it people, it is great fun!
As I read through some of the comments in this thread it amazes me that some people can’t imagine playing without tonguing!
Tucson Whistler; tonguing is not as important as slurring. Out of 100 percent of your playing only 1 or 2 percent should be tongued, if any.
The emphasis in faster tunes should be playing phrases in unbroken breaths while using cuts and rolls to break up long notes and double notes; eg, d followed by d or two G’s etc.
lawhistle; you say your teacher is a master musician, I am just curious, surely he is not a master traditional Irish music teacher? He would not be allowing you to tongue as much as you are other wise.
Another question, why would you be tonguing during a roll? Or a cut?
I am perplexed.
Sorry, I don’t have the facilities to post a sound clip as yet, but I will work on it.
PallasAthena you have the right idea.
At one of my first ever sessions (talk about nervous!) I played vibrato using the glottal stop on a held bottom D note to end a slowish tune. When I had finished an old timer turned to me and said “Cran”. It was said in the same tone like you would say ‘stop’ or ‘not like that’, what he meant was I should not be using ‘breath’ vibrato on bottom D.
Finally johnnyboi, I was brought up in Ireland and from my experience tonguing was frowned upon if there was a lot of it. It could be, and still can be, used sparingly.
If it is the main form of articulation to anyones playing, you are doing the wrong thing as to the intent of ITM ornamenting.
Hi, sorry if this is somewhere lost in the search function, but I certainly couldn’t find it, or in the faq. I’m in the midst of a really interesting discussion on tonguing, and need to post an audio clip, but I’m tech challenged, and can’t find any previous document around here to give instructions. Can anyone tell me where it is, or describe how to post audio? Thanks!
oops, this is how tech challeneged I am, should have posted this to the main board. Will do that now. Sheesh.
I do agree with you. When I wrote “as improtant as” I did not mean “as much as”. I don’t tongue a lot, although probably more than I should. But I did learn that it is an important technique, as is slurring, using your throat (never knew that’s called a glottal stop), air intake, ect. That’s just my take and I’m still learning (a lot from this board).
“lawhistle; you say your teacher is a master musician, I am just curious, surely he is not a master traditional Irish music teacher? He would not be allowing you to tongue as much as you are other wise.
Another question, why would you be tonguing during a roll? Or a cut?
I am perplexed.”
Ceili Whistle Man - I think what we’re learning here in this thread is that there is more than one way to articulate musically. Listen to Bloomfields clip of Seamus Ennis on the f whistle. Before he posted I had never heard playing with such little tongued articulation. It’s not a style I would ever play in, but it’s fabulous. Does this sound like what you’re refering to? Certainly you can hear from other recordings (Mary Bergin, Angela Deane, Gavin Whelan, etc, etc, etc, that people use differing amounts of tongued articulation. How about Paddy Maloney and Sean Potts CD. Now theres some tonguing for you. You wouldn’t go so far to say they aren’t master musicians would you?
I took a week long course with Mary Bergin. She had VERY specific rules for tongued articulation. She uses it ALOT, certianly more than 10% I dug out my class notes.
For jigs she uses OTT (open tongue tongue)
For reels she had several different methods, used depending on the tune itself.
(ABCD = four notes of the reel)
- A (open) B (tongue) C (open) D (tongue)
- A (open) B (tongue) C (cut no tongue) D (open)
- A (hard cut with tongue) B (open) C (open) D tongue
etc. (there were several more)
additionally tongue the first note of every roll
addtionally tongue the first note of every bcd triplet
tongue every hard cut (paricularly on a low or high B
Now THATS alot of tonguing. Maybe not everybody’s cup of tea, but nobody’s going to argue that Mary Bergin isn’t a master musician. My teacher studied with her for several years. He came away with a personal style that incorporates a little less than than.
For the sake of learning and comparison in this discussion, I’m posting a couple of tunes from one of my lessons. It was played slowly and off-the-cuff just for reference, not a professional recording. But you can hear it is certainly traditional. And quite a bit more tonguing than is frequently mentioned in this thread. Thanks!
sorry, posted twice accidentally, erased one.
lawhistle, I think you’re hung up on the amount of tonguing. That says very little, compared to looking at what notes are tongued or not.
There are traditional players who tongue almost not at all, some who tongue a lot. But there is a clear style, shared by Irish trad musicians, and to my mind it comes down to: Slur into the strong notes. It doesn’t matter that much how many notes are slurred or cut or struck or tongued between the strong notes. A minor rule is also to slur into the high notes on octave (or other large interval) jumps. Lot’s more to say, of course. And always exceptions.
I’m hung up? I wouldn’t have bothered to post anything at all minus the guy who originally asked the question asked "HOW MUCH tonguing do you use? Then there were several comments saying “not much” and “less than 10 percent” or whatever. Or Ceili guy asking how my teacher could be a master musician if he “let me tongue THAT MUCH”. It was the topic. I certainly know that it’s not specifically just the amount, but the placement and the technique. Actually, at this point, what I do is just automatic. It’s been interesting to go back and figure out what it is that I’m actually doing.
I feel that the whole discussion of trying to quantify how much or how little to tongue is ultimately pointless. Tonguing is just a tool in whistle playing for emphasis, shortening notes, articulation, etc. How much you want to tongue is up to you and your personal tastes. There are no rules other than that. The whole “traditional musicians frown on tonguing” thing is bull and unfortunately too often heard on internet forums.
What is more important is how/where tonguing is employed and I think this is really the crux of the matter when someone (usually a classically/brass band trained musician) is told that he is “tonguing too much”. More often that not what is actually being said is that he/she is tonguing in a way that detracts from the rhythm/phrasing of the dance tune.
So how is a complete beginner going to know how and where tonguing can be ultilized effectively? Rather than prescribing rules or tonguing patterns I think the best way to go about learning this by immersion. Listen to many good traditional whistle players and hear how they use tonguing. Learn by immitating how your favourite players articulate.
Sorry Eldarion, but I beg to differ, I was born and brought up in Ireland, and I can quite honestly say that The whole “traditional musicians frown on tonguing” thing is bull and unfortunately too often heard on internet forums. is not true, and it is not pointless discussing it’s merits. I would suggest folk who are following this post would be most intrigued to see the wide range of opinions on the subject.
I don’t know about the rest of the world but in Ireland there are still die hard traditionalists who frown on tonguing. It is not as prevailant as years ago, but it is still there. I played at a session in the Bridge bar in Bundoran, County Donegal just over a year ago while on holiday and found that the younger players were a lot more free in the way they emphasised/ornamented tunes, there was only very minimal tonguing to be heard.
Tonguing in itself isn’t such an evil that it should not be done, but it should be used sparingly, Eldarion, I believe you come close to the answer in the second paragraph of your first post.
lawhistle, I am not trying to question your music teacher’s credentials or ability, but what I asked was ‘surely he is not a master traditional Irish music teacher?’ It puzzles me because in all my time in Ireland, tonguing would have been the last thing most teachers would have suggested for seperating notes or articulating phrases.
To summarise your questions in your second paragraph of your last post, Seamus Ennis clip; yes, very good, that is one extreme of playing, all slurs and lots of cuts, taps and rolls. Paddy Maloney and Sean Potts; yes, lots of ornamentation, but they don’t play like that all the time do they? And finally; correct, I would not say they are not master musicians!
I understand now what you where on about when you said you tongued on rolls and such when you gave Mary Bergin as an example. Her tonguing doesn’t intrude that much into the tune, it is just that there are people out there who think it is okay to tongue everything!
I’m off to have a listen to the other tunes you have linked to, thanks,
and, Happy whistling!
tut-tut-tut, tut-tut-tut.
As I recall I did not comment on the merits or demerits of tonguing. What I was referring to as pointless is the quantification of how much tonguing is considered acceptable or unacceptable in Irish traditional music.
(I’m afraid playing the born-and-brought-up-in-Ireland card doesn’t really impress me a bit. I have encountered one too many Irish person with little clue about their own traditional music)
Yeah theres a wide range of opinions but I think that comes with the territory of internet forums. Everyones an expert.
Such as? And even if it was true to the whistling style of a particular region it doesn’t justify the extrapolation of saying that “traditional musicians frown on tonguing”. One only needs a pair of ears and a quick listen to a bunch of whistle players from within the tradition to hear that such a statement is ridiculously inaccurate and misleading. Unless you would count the likes of Donncha O Briain, Josie McDermott, Kieran Collins, Sean Potts, Paddy Moloney, Joe Skelton, Tommy McCarthy etc as untraditional.
Fair enough. Good on you.
Eldarion,
Can I ask you where you got the “traditional musicians frown on tonguing” quote from? I hope you are not attributing it to me.
Let me clear some things up, I stated that " in Ireland there are still die hard traditionalists who frown on tonguing". Now if you read that again and read it correctly, you will see I said ‘in Ireland’, not Singapore or the U.S. or anywhere else for that matter.
Why won’t you accept what I said instead of rubbishing me?
You are correct in saying "The whole “traditional musicians frown on tonguing” thing is bull’ if that is what someone actually said, because it infers that all traditional players frown on tonguing, and that clearly is not the case, and not what I said.
Out of interest Eldarion, how much tonguing do you use? I use it very rarely, but when I first switched from fife to flute and whistle I was a chronic tonguer!
I can’t help that I was born and brought up in Ireland and have traditional music in my blood. What galls me is the ‘I have encountered one too many Irish person with little clue about their own traditional music’ statement. Yes there are plenty of them out there and they are clueless but, I am not one of them my whistling friend! (’ Sing Danny Boy for us mate’, I’m sick of being asked that, like it is the only Irish ballad ever written!)
I would suggest that there are far more people around the world with little clue about Irish traditional music who think that just because they have learned to play a few tunes on the whistle/flute/fiddle, etc, it qualifies then as expert enough to pass comment on anything to do with ITM.
That does not mean I am an expert player or any other kind of expert, but please don’t doubt what I said about tonguing.
lawhistle, bear with me for a few days, I am working on getting someone to help me make and upload a couple of videos of a couple of tunes where I use the glottal stop, no tonguing etc.