You posted just before I did, Cathy, and I was pleasantly surprised to read your last paragraph. Great minds, and all that… 
Like yourself, I’ve come to the conclusion that the tone is what cuts through when the right tone is got. Mere volume isn’t all that necessary, but focus helps. I also like your analogy of “riding over the top of it all”. That is as it should be. 
So the flute player can’t hear himself, and because of that plays completely out of tune, and everybody else in the pub can hear that perfectly well!
There is that.
How do you get a flute player to play in tune? Put the gobshite in a separate room.
Many times an orchestral flutist is confronted by the situation of having to play an important part when the overall volume of the orchestra is such that he can barely, if at all, hear himself play.
Yet they manage to play with good intonation, projection, and emotion; if they don’t, they are eventually replaced with a flutist who can.
So is it possible to play well when you can’t hear yourself play? Yes.
But is it fun? I would say no.
I enjoy sessions best with about 4 or 5 good musicians. Less than that and it can sound a bit skeletal–more than that, and playing well becomes real work.
–James
Don’t you think , Glauber ( I should stop there! ) that there is a difference between players thinking others won’t hear them if they use a pure -carrying- tone flute and players using a flute which is loud under the ear in the hope of playing in tune ?.The world’s top violinists are playing with (or perhaps against ) big orchestras with instruments which are not loud under the ear , but carry .Some of them play in tune .
It may be that the insidious rises in pitch were caused by generations of such virtuosi who played 1/2 tone sharper than the orchestra thinking it was necessary to cut through .
I once asked Nathan Milstein how he tested violins .He told me he always checked how quietly they would play , knowing that if they were responsive enough to play quietly they would also provide sufficient volume .
Of course one doesn’t need to play in tune if one has a rotten piano for accompanyment .
How well a flute plays quietly is an important point for me, so I was interested by your story about Mr. Milstein, Andrew.
Odd, but in the most raucous sessions (may they be few and far between), I don’t have much trouble hearing myself. Maybe I play too loudly.
Sometimes, but it hurts!
Interesting about the violins.
No, i don’t think it’s possible to play in tune without hearing yourself a little bit (orchestral player or not). Playing flute is like singing. The loudest possible session can’t compete in volume with even a small rock band. If you have to play in amplified groups, my advice is, get your own monitor. It took me years of frustration to learn that.
Interestingly, for the longest time the problem with flutes in orchestras is that they couldn’t play soft enough. A lot of orchestral flute parts are scored softly in the third octave. It’s only recently (2nd half of the 20th century, i think) that orchestras became so big and so loud that the flutes have trouble keeping up.
I’ve been playing mostly Baroque flutes, and those by definition are not loud, but the whole game there is to find the sweet spot that will give you the best response, the fullest sound, with the smallest amount of air. When you find the magic spot, the result is incredible. You don’t have to blow the hell out of a flute to get a projecting sound.
I understand that some flute players (trad only, perhaps?) tune a little sharp or flat in order to be audible. Whether that’s for themselves or for the listener I don’t know, but if it’s for the listener’s sake, I’m a bit squeamish about that. I have to play in tune, or I’ll hate myself in the morning.
Ditto you all. It seems that if it’s that important to hear yourself, before playing out of tune on purpose you should just go play alone enough until you know the flute well enough to know what it’s going to do.
It does seem to come back to responsiveness again and again, doesn’t it? And I don’t just mean in terms of agility or facility – but in terms of responsiveness to the subtle adjustments we must constantly make as we play.
Andrew, you’ve said exactly what my fiddle-playing fella said as well.
And Glauber, NO! No matter what your blandishments, I am NOT taking up yet another sort of flute to drive myself crazy with. Things are bad enough already!
I have just been recalling a rehearsal with an orchestra by the splendid Tasman Little , playing her fine Guadagnini .I had been listening fom around the hall .Miss Little said she felt she wouldn’t be heard , strangely enough ,and asked me how she sounded . I could assure her that she came across just fine .
Cathy,
A question for you, in regards to your initial post: Does John Skelton’s Olwell or Burns flutes sound characterless when you hear him play them? Not being sarcastic at all here, I’m honestly curious since I recently had the chance to hear John these flutes in person.
Loren
Not making any comparisons , of course , but I didn’t know what subtle flute playing was till I spent the weekend listening to Jean-Michel Veillon .
It confirmed what Brian Finnegan said the weekend before :- that Jean -Michel is way out in front in the subtlety stakes .I must say that every player I hear sounds just the same , whatever they play !
I haven’t heard Jean-Michel Veillon live, but to agree with Andrew’s other point . . .
That’s one of the reasons I find it interesting that people want to get flutes to sound like certain people. Chris Norman sounds like Chris Norman on anything; just like Molloy sounds like Molloy. And, fortunately or unfortunately, I sound like me.
Stuart
Andrew – why are you so angry at Americans? We won the war two and a half centuries ago. Get over it! :roll:
Flutes should feel good to play, so that you play well. What this means is entirely personal, and often based on what you’re used to or have been playing. If you can’t hear yourself, you can play well, but you won’t enjoy yourself, so you won’t play your best, and it won’t matter much to you, anyway.
If you’ve been playing awhile, it probably means several different types of flutes. I spend most of my playing time on a baroque flute, but then I return to my Hamilton with pleasure, like opening up the windows after the winter is over.
I’ve played antiques and new flutes, and generally prefer the good antiques over the good new flutes, but much prefer the good new flutes over bad antiques. Since most of us, Andrew, do not have the money or access to good antiques, Rudalls and the like, we end up finding flutes that are made recently, but well, or we suffer with those that are not great flutes.
In the end, a good player will make almost anything sound good. The quirkier the flute, the more we call it “character”. Modern flutes, particularly Boehms, but even some of the wooden flutes, McGees et al, also have less flaws, a more open, transparent sound, and therefore seem to have less character. The truth is, most character is put there by the player, or the character flaws are exploited by the (good) players and they sound good, rather than bad.
Hmm.. I seem to have run out of ramble…
Gordon
The present war is being pursued by our idiot criminal leader as well as yours , Gordon .My feeling against your ( evil ) administration is of recent generation , with your substantial loss of democracy , and the pretence that you still have something left to offer the rest of the world , with your New American Century , your Crusade against Islam , and your Dominionism.
I must say that the Americans I deal with are a nice and well educated and civilised lot .Not like the soldiers I see interviewed who are so keen to go out and maim and murder .Same for their bosses .
Read Counterpunch free on the internet .
I am afraid it is sheer drivel to talk as you do about the cost of decent antiques .I have bought plenty of good 8 silver key flutes since I began comparatively recently for far lower prices than you lot are squandering on second rate keyless flutes .
Andrew, rescuing and collecting antique flutes is a fine pursuit, but to level the assesment of “second-rate” against modern made flutes (not all of which are keyless) seems a bit of a stretch.
The keyed antique flute that I’m in love with cost a little more than $300 between purchase price and having it brought into tune with itself.
(just a data point, not an opinion one way or another)
I have an honest question: Where does one find all these antique flutes? I hear people warning us from buying E-bay flutes. I know Ralph Sweet sells some, and Vintage Instruments. But how does one go about finding a good antique flute? (the bargains that some of you have mentioned) 
Thanks, Jeanie
Jeanie, i can’t speak from experience, since i don’t collect flutes, but basically the German “nach Meyer” (Meyer model? i think) flutes are plentiful and often not very expensive, or sometimes you see a nice French or American flute. It’s the loud English flutes that are overpriced, because of their association with Irish music. Usually when one of those shows up, someone mentions it here or in Woodenflute, and the price shoots up to heaven.
What scares me off buying flutes on eBay is having to buy without being able to touch and play the flute. It’s always a gamble, so basically you have to be willing to gamble $200-$300 and sometimes you get a decent flute. I guess i’m not a gambler. I’ve been to Vegas once, thought it was interesting, but i couldn’t convince myself even to plonk $0.25 in one of the slot machines. Comes from having a Presbyterian upbringing, i guess! 
Gordon, it’s like jazz: if you have to ask it, then you’ll never know.
g
Andrew, remember when you are looking at the United States government, you are not seeing the people, the individuals that make up our country. It would be a mistake to characterize or judge the average American using elected officials as your pattern.
For what it’s worth, I am not a fan of the current administration, either. America is deeply polarized now, over many issues (some real, like the war, some less real, like gay marriage–there are always things like that which are thrown out more or less as decoys during times of real trouble here), and for every American that supports the war, chances are there are (at least) one who opposes it just as strongly.
On flutes, I think the subjective differences in how different flutes handle and play, which are extremely obvious and immediate to the player, don’t carry over into the music nearly so much as we think.
We do tend to sound like ourselves, no matter what we are playing on.
That said, though, it is also true that a Baroque flute is never going to sound like a Hamilton, and the reverse is true as well, so it’s not all the player, either.
–James