Pakistani UPs and other 'budget sets'... the facts

Pipemaker Tim Britton here, clocking in a little late.

Some of you may be aware that I have made a habit of refurbishing Pakistani made UPs for many years and have worked with one of the two companies who make them, to improve their product for the sake of the unsuspecting customer. I have sold numerous sets like this after altering them to my specs, as well as altering existing sets for customers who bought them elsewhere only to find them unplayable until “fixed” by me. My many customers for these instruments have thanked me profusely for my willingness to offer workable pipes at a price that allowed them to get them at all, or for helping the hapless victims of unscrupulous businessmen.

After much effort I have concluded that the Pakistani craftsmen are not willing and/or able to pay enough attention to detail to make it a satisfying venture on my part. This has as much to do with my own feeling of not liking to invest my energy on such compromised results as it has to do with any objective assessment of them.

Having said that, I feel I have turned many of both models into good sounding instruments. My complaint (after I get done with them) is more with the logistics than acoustics. The key work remains sloppy as well as a plethora of logistical design issues all of which come to bear on the piping experience.

I do not agree with the author of the Pipers’ Review article on most counts. It is clear that he is not knowledgeable or capable as a pipemaker, although as such, he is appropriately similar to the bulk of the readership. I would not recommend anyone in his position blindly playing pipemaker. His position is, of course, understandable and I respect the intent of his valiant efforts. I simply don’t recommend it. His conclusion, stated so unequivocally, that the pipes were a product of confusing plans for flat sets is, IMO, a product of his own lack of understanding. As I have stated in my reedmaking book, most pipers and even pipemakers don’t understand that drones can be made to play absolutely steady. The techniques that make a drone reed play steadily mostly make it play sharper as well. Many drones are made such that it is difficult or impossible to make them play in pitch and unwaveringly throughout normal pressure dynamics. Unless there are more than the two companies making UPs in Pakistan that I’m aware of, I think it likely that he and the pipemaker he consulted don’t fully understand this point.

His conclusion that the chanter throat length was 3/16” too long, again is, misguided. I purposely make my chanters a little longer on the top to accommodate what I feel is a better logistical relationship with my reeds which tend to fit other chanters perfectly with the addition of a small telescopic tubing extension, conveniently acting as a tuning slide as well as maintaining acoustical integrity throughout varying tuning positions. There is so much variability in pipe and reed design that a "discrepancy of this magnitude is par for the course.

It is quite possible that the holes were not place accurately, but if the pipes he altered were ones from Mid-East Manufacturing, the company I worked with, the horizontal hole offset may have been intentional as per my instructions which place the holes more ergonomically than simply straight down the front and back of the chanter, which, in my experience, is not quite how the hands naturally want to sit on the chanter.

Hole placement and size is best done from well-evolved plans rather than trial and error. Lastly, although 400 grit is fairly fine, I don’t recommend sanding bores. Chanter boring can only accurately be done with an appropriate reamer.

For my own part, although I will continue supporting owners of my work wherever it is applied, I am no longer selling refurbished Paki UPs nor will I refurbish existing instruments. My own value judgment is that the companies that have them made and those that sell them, although possibly well intentioned, are not in a position to be responsible to their customers in a way that this instrument demands.

Thanks Tim.

After further consideration, although I will not be selling Pakistani pipes anymore, I am willing to work on existing chanters and drones for people already possessing them. I am not interested in working on regulators as they are too much of a rat’s nest of bad design and workmanship. There are less issues with the chanter and drones. I do not wish to ecourage more sales of these instruments with the intention of having them worked on by the likes of me but only to cater to those who have purchased them already and are stuck with less than workable pipes. The uillean pipes and the music they play are worthy of the considerable investment necessary to do them justice, the least of which is monetary.

Tim Britton

Some years ago, we had a fledgeling wannabe piper in our pipers’ club who, despite unanimous advice to the contrary, went and bought a set of Pakistani supposedly-Uilleann Pipes from Hobgoblin. To put it technically, they were … crap. They didn’t play in tune, they were unstable ('what do ya mean: “there’s supposed to be a 2nd octave thingy??”), the ‘blackwood’ was actually white wood with black paint flaking off, the ‘brass’ trim was ‘gold’-painted aluminium, the bag was PVC, the reeds … well, even I can make better reeds than that!

If you want to buy pipes, mix with pipers and ask their advice. They’ll usually be franker than any public forum can be (no need to worry about laws of slander or libel in a private conversation!). And if you find a piper you like to listen to, and on whose pipes YOU sound better than usual, well, just go to his/her pipe-maker and put your money there. Buy the best you can afford; and if all your budget’ll stretch to is a choice between a good (expensive) practice set and a dubious (inexpensive) half set, then go for quality every time.

Yikes! Sounds like a third company with far less integrity is in evidence. Just to keep the record straight, the two companies I’m familiar with are not nearly as bad as all that, but none the less not up to standards we would do well to adhere to. I’ve seen much worse from “Western” makers than these two places put out. It’s just that there are so many logistical and acoustical complications involved in effectively designing and making Uillean pipes that no one should attempt it, proffessionally at least, without profound knowledge of the instrument and its music. Just wanted to make sure no babies were thrown out with the bath water…

Tim Britton

After reading the Doug Dexter article, I’m beginning to wonder why we don’t have a George Washington’s axe sticky thread…

The Padre has spoken. :wink:

Surely I’m one of the many whove already posted to say:

How I wish I’d never bought those Paki UP’s. :imp:

A noble effort, indeed, to try to make them playable; & often a learning experience. yet it seems so unworthwhile when a real UP can be had from the outset. :sniffle:

I also might add, fwiw, that I wish I cound redeem the time spent in fitzzing around with them. :sunglasses:

Can we now look forward to guidance from the MCC about “interfering with” Pakistani pipes?

Just when you thought it was safe to go to eBay … she’s back…

I’m torn between genuine pity and the irresistible urge to crack mean jokes, e.g. only Dolly Parton could play them in that position.

Oh gee, I hadn’t realized how much I was missing her :laughing: ! I love that lady. Such an earnest face! And, er.., this just goes to show how hard it is to re-sell those pipes made in Pakistan.

Just thot i’d post this in. I know the whole vat of paki pipes being horrible etc.

I play the GHB and whislt at a games came across a vendor with a UP practice set made out of “alternative materials”. So instead of the bellow being all fancy wood and leather it was (or resembles) a air matres pump. the bag is a heavy duity plastic dual (has wholes for bellows and a blow pipe) smallpipe bag. the chanter has a brass stock(?) and the chanter(in G) is made out of a cheeper plastic material (other than poly thats used in syth. GHB chanters). I gave it a whirl, it seemed fair enough. not an amazingly sweet sound but fair, the C took extra presure to get in, and the top two notes were hard to squeeze in (but i hear that happens often with chanters).
They chanter was unmarked with no maker name -but i know they’re “Hepburn”…made in UK. the chanter was marked with “www.bagpipe.co.uk”. the second octave comes in well. came with a plastic reed, was pre-set etc. works well.
I bought them -$260. mainly because they wern’t total crap (note: i would never have bought them if i haddnt played them first, i’m not that much of a sucker).
I’m learning fine with them, but if i so choose to continue the instrument i will invest in a full half set. i wouldnt continue to use the chanter.

just wanted to point out that these arnt total crap http://www.bagpipe.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/30/products_id/105

i know ill have a bunch of people rolling there eyes at me. but wanted to point this set out.

I’ve seen one of these and I was not favorably impressed. I would definitely advise against starting off with a plastic chanter reed.

See pages one and two of this thread; the majority opinion seems to be that the B.G. set above is included in the category of things to avoid. 260 is nearly halfway to one of the starter sets made by people who specialize in uilleann pipes with standard bellows and fullsize bags, cane reeds, etc.

… not to mention, a legitimate and known identity. :laughing:

Hello,
I bought six months ago a paki practice set. It had a plastic reed. I had to find a reed maker in my area, Santiago de Compostela. Happily I found a uilleann piper in A Coruña and he sold a cane reed. We had to check several reeds and finaly one of them sound very well and tuned. The sound is not like the Froment chanter but the tuner indicates I am on tuning. I was very lucky but I don´t recommend to anyone to buy a paki set.
One month later I bought a drones set, also pakis. The cane was able to make the correct D but finaly I met a galician gaita maker adjusted my new drones and all the joints avoiding the air flows through them.
Now I am happy with my paki half set. It sound well, not like my loved Liam O´Flynn but the ratio quality/price is enough for me. The tune of the notes is correct at the tuner but some notes like B, E and C# are a little lower but I think it happens to every chanter, even at Froment ones. A friend of mine has a Froment chanter and we was check the tuning of our chanter and mine was very close to his one. The tone, timber of his one are sweeter than mine but the price is different too.
I do not recommend to anyone to buy paki sets but if you know something about reedmaking maybe you can arrange you paki chanter.
Finaly, don´t buy paki sets. You can be less lucky than me.

I, too, have a 1/2 set of Pakistani made Uilleann Pipes, and after a long time and reworking, I finally got 'em to play… what a pain in the ass.

If I had simply spent the money on a good practice set (and there ARE good sets out there, some are called ‘budget sets’ but they are made by good pipemakers), I would’ve been off to the races a lot sooner than I was eventually able to be.

In the Uilleann Piping world, “you get what you paid for” is not only a catchy but tired old cliche, it’s the fecking truth most of the time.

I seriously caution anyone thinking about throwing away their hard earned cash on 'em. Give me your money instead so I can go out and get really, really drunk… I promise, you’ll get more for your buck if you do. :smiling_imp:

Thanks to spamming, from none other than the manufacturer of pipes built in Pakistani :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: , I have decided to lock this thread. If you need to post something here, send me a PM with your post and I will paste it here. Thanks.

Oh, and never buy pipes from this lady…




-EMD