I smell another “musical beggers” thread.
Phil,
I thought Snatch was a great film too. I wonder who trained Brad Pitt to talk like that?
As far as my credentials to discuss the whole Irish Travellers thing…
I happen to love Planxty’s Raggle Taggle Gypsy and I relate more to the passionate Gypsy than the rich and powerful lord.
sa th’re ye go… 
Look out! Craig is serious; he’s quoting Victor Hugo!
I love to sing-a
About the moon-a and the June-a and the spring-a,
I love to sing-a,
About a sky of blue-a, or a tea for two-a,
Anything-a with a swing-a to an “I love you-a,”
I love to, I love to sing!
Give me a song-a
About a son-a gun that went and done her wrong-a.
But keep it clean-a,
With a cottage small-a by a waterfall-a,
Any sob-a that will throb-a to a bluebird’s call-a,
I love, I love to sing!
I was born a singin’ fool-a,
Lah-de-dah!
Ol’ Major Bowes is gonna spot me,
Got through Yale with boula-boula,
Lah-de-dah!
Old microphone’s got me!
I love to sing-a,
I love to wake up with the south-a in my mouth-a,
And wave a flag-a,
With a cheer for Uncle Sammy and another for my mammy,
I love to sing!
The swingin’est,
Hot singin’est,
Bell-ringin’est,
Song singin’est
High tootin’est,
Sky tootin’est,
I love to sing!
On 2002-09-25 15:16, The Weekenders wrote:
I was surprised by article referring to those specific Traveling Folk on the East Coast as Irish as they are usually referred to as Scottish Travelers. But the article claimed they were Catholic so I dunno…
We tend to associate Scotland with Protestantism (or, more specifically, Presbyterianism), but I think Catholicism is fairly strong there nowadays.
Chuck you are talking about an entire ethnic group here and if you said what you said here in Ireland [‘the men do this .., the women that..’ without any reserve] Traveller’s rights organisations would have you through the courts before you could blink and rightfully so. A lot of things expressed here are the old worn bigoted perceptions of the Travelling community, the biggest self proclaimed expert having direct experience because he ‘dated’ a member of the community under discussion once.
Maybe it’s also good to look at the social exclusion that led to certain types of behaviour as long as less than 5 percent of Traveller men reach the age of 65[and the women die much earlier still, health statistics that would embarras any third world country] I don’t think you can blame them for not wanting to conform to a society that rejects travellers as a group.
Will we go on topic now and have a positive discussion about the music of Johnny and Felix Doran, The Dohertys, The Fureys and Paddy Keenan etc. probably more productive and you may gain some insights from it.
http://w1.461.telia.com/~u46103557/jdoran.html
is worth a look for the Doran’s music and some background
Look up the website for Pavee point in Dublin they have sensible information on the subject
http://ireland.iol.ie/~pavee/
[edited to add links]
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-09-26 04:41 ]
[quote]
On 2002-09-26 03:18, Peter Laban wrote:
Will we go on topic and have a positive discussion about the music of Johnny and Felix Doran, The Dohertys and Paddy Keenan etc.
What’s your hurry? But let’s edge in that direction.
I was surprised to read that there is an identifiable traveller group in the US. As far as I know, there is no such group in Australia although I’d be delighted to be contradicted on that. Swagmen—our ‘travellers’, were itinerant males generally travelling around looking for whatever work they could find in hard times.
I’ve wondered for a while who the Irish and Scottish travellers are and got even more interested when I read recently that most Stewarts are descended from Scottish travellers and that most are partly of Rom (Gypsy) descent. If you have some Stewart in you then that’s you buddy. It also happens to be me. The Scots travellers and gypsies are distinct groups but there’s a lot of interrelatedness there. According to the article I read, the Irish travellers are probably not of Rom descent. So, probably indiginous clans in both countries initially.
As for the puzzlement about Scottish catholics: many parts of the highlands held out for quite a while against protestantism and the Southern Hebrides never gave in to ‘subtle’ English and lowland pressure to change. Further north, change came slowly and reluctantly—heard of the Jacobites? The recent increase has to do with Irish migration and intermarriage with highlanders who were already catholic.
Now music: amongst Scottish musicians who are from traveller families we have Belle Stewart, Davey Stewart, Jeannie Robertson and, today, the wonderful Andy M. Stewart—obviously on any sane shortlist for greatest singer in the tradition active today. Well, if I’m even distantly related to that lot then I’m a happy little wombat.
I tried recently to order some Johnny Doran CDs without success. Anybody know of an outlet? Hey, we’re OT at last.
[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-09-26 04:29 ]
Peter,
You don’t what you’re talking about. You may know something about what goes on or doesn’t in Ireland, but you clearly have no knowledge about the Travellers here in the U.S.
By the way, in addition to my experience having been directly involved with someone from this group, I have knowledge, like Chuck, from the law enforcement side as well: For a number of years I provided Defensive Tactics Training to City, State, and Federal Law Enforcement Officers and Agencies. During that time I had many disucussions with Law Enforcement personell regarding a wide variety of crime related topics, in cluding Traveller Crime.
Generally speaking, the information from both my professional and personal sources matched.
You want to disagree with me out of ignorance, Peter? Fine. However, if you want to imply that I (or Chuck for that matter) have little idea what I’m talking about, then you are simply wrong.
I’m done with this thread, folks are going to believe what they want, regardless of the actual facts.
Loren
[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-09-26 07:16 ]
Glad you got in there, Peter, and tried to get this thread back on topic, because I’m very uncomfortable with it, both for what some people are saying and about the fact that it’s on C&F at all.
I’m the first to recognise that the Irish Travellers can be their own worst enemies, but the sort of generalisations which are being made here about them are disgraceful, and I doubt if anyone in the US would dare to make them (at least publicly) about groups such as Jews or black people.
On 2002-09-26 07:04, Loren wrote:
You want to disagree with me out of ignorance, Peter? Fine. However, if you want to imply that I (or Chuck for that matter) have little idea what I’m talking about, then you are simply wrong.
In an interview with The Piper’s Review last year Paddy Keenan spoke freely of how it was to grow up as a traveller in Ireland, how it was to step out of the door and have the law enforcement officers onto them who ‘knew from experience’ they couldn’t be any good, how it was being picked at for being a ‘knacker’ or a ‘tinker’ and all the prejudices they had to suffer.
He also spoke about the Travelling communities he found in the US, how he immediately felt at home with them, how they had retained customs and traditions that have been lost by the travelling people of Ireland. I think he even travelled with them for a whiile [I don’t have the interview here so I have to rely on memory]. My impression then was that the Travellers in the US were not that different from those here. It is obvious from this thread the problems and the prejudices are very much the same.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-09-26 11:12 ]
I am currently reading a series of fantasy books written by Robert Jordan, and this thread sheds some light on the “realities” about some parts of this “fantasy” story. In the story, there are travellers who are endlessly looking for a “song” which was long forgotten. People around them only see them as thieves, and won’t have anything to do with them. But the travellers, in the story, are just peaceful people trying to survive. Well, I guess Robert Jordan has his “vision” about the travellers “issue” but at least now I understand more about the dynamics of it all.
Having lived in South Carolina, and having had a fair bit of exposure to the “Travelers” in that area, I would guess that there is probably a difference between them and the Irish Travelers across the big pond. I have to (yikes-a-hooty! ) agree with Loren that here in the Southeast the Travelers do not have a wonderful reputation and unfortunately have taken advantage of a lot of people by shoddy building practices and the now-infamous driveway scam. I personally take umbrage with their practice of getting their daughters engaged as early as 6 or 7 years old, to boys that are many times at least twice their age, and exchanging money for it. I know this from an observer’s experience… I worked in a photography studio where many of them would come in for their engagement pictures. They would wait a while for the actual wedding, but still… it was really sad to see these little girls knowing that around 13 or so they would be married and mothers. It was rather disturbing to see a pound of makeup and hairspray, and provocative clothes on girls that were the same age as my own little girl. :-/ It’s a very different world within their communities.
This is not to malign the Traveler population as a whole… I can’t speak about all of them, just the ones in the Carolina area. I do know that it can vary from place to place, and I would like to think that the ones in the Southeast are an aberration from the majority.
Azalin, I love the Wheel of Time series! Jordan is from South Carolina, which is where he probably got the idea for his books… it’s interesting his “take” on the whole thing. I wonder if he’s trying to point out that there is a difference in the various communities?
Andrea
\
~~Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.~~
[ This Message was edited by: aderyn_cyrdd on 2002-09-26 11:25 ]
Like Loren, one more comment and then I’m out of this one.
Peter, you speak from knowledge of fact in Ireland and I’d never impugn your comments about the group in the Old Country. Perhaps those who stayed behind have gone straight or were unfairly maligned in the first place.
You don’t, however, know whereof you speak regarding the US branch of the group. As succinctly as I can put it, the actual experience of law enforcement in THIS country is thousands of crimes a year, most by deceptions targeted at the homebound elderly, the diabled and others incapable of properly protecting themselves. I find such behavior, which appears to be a group choice according to the evidence I’ve personally seen, to be reprehensible and unacceptable. Defend it if you wish.
Hey Chris,
I lived in Ireland until I was 23. Not all gypsies are bad, but many do a hell of a lot of fighting, drinking and other sad stuff. They could use some help.
As for racism, the apostle Paul (a moral leader for many today) took some real heavy shots at the folks from Crete, agreeing with those who called them lazy useless gluttons. Why? 'Cause it was the truth. I believe in the truth, not political correctness. There are differences in the races, physically, mentally and culturally…and those cultural elements can involve moral issues.
Chuck you are talking about an entire ethnic group here and if you said what you said here in Ireland [‘the men do this .., the women that..’ without any reserve] Traveller’s rights organisations would have you through the courts before you could blink and rightfully so.
Peter,
When you return from giving your deposition before the World Court in an attempt to indict those on this thread for trying to start a second Holocost or a return to slavery I would suggest you re-read Chuck’s post as he said nothing about “men do this women do that”.
…geesh lighten up
There were three auld gypsies came to our hall door.
They came brave and boldly-o.
And one sang high and the other sang low
And the other sang a raggle taggle gypsy-o.
It was upstairs, downstairs the lady went,
Put on her suit of leather-o,
And it was the cry all around her door;
“She’s away with the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
It was late that night when the lord came in,
Enquiring for his lady-o,
And the servant girl’s reply to him was;
“She’s away with the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
“Then saddle for me my milk-white steed
Me big horse is not speedy-o
And I will ride and I’ll seek me bride,
She’s away with the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
He rode east and he rode west
He rode north and south also,
And when he rode to the wide open field
It was there that he spied his lady-o.
“Arra, why did you leave your house and your land,
Why did you leave your money-o?
Why did you leave your only wedded lord
All for the raggle taggle gypsy-o?”
“Yerra what do I care for me house and me land?
What do I care for money-o?
What do I care for me only wedded lord?
I’m away with the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
“It was there last night you’d a goose feather bed,
Blankets drawn so comely-o.
But tonight you lie in a wide open field
In the arms of the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
“Yerra, what do I care for me goose feather bed?
Yerra, what do I care for blankets-o?
What do I care for me only wedded lord?
I’m away with the raggle taggle gypsy-o”
“Oh, for you rode east when I rode west,
You rode high and I rode low.
I’d rather have a kiss of the yellow gypsy’s lips
Than all the cash and money-o”
[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2002-09-26 14:09 ]
Like Loren, one more and Im outta this one:
-
My experience is with Spanish gypsies mostly from the flamenco community here in Bay Area. We also have Rom gypsies and had a local “king” about a mile from where I type. They have had some serious feuding over succession and I have had some interaction with them. I have learned to keep my distance.
-
The commonality of the situation is very well expressed by this thread:
People’s sense of goodwill, social justice and intellectual ideas of fairness are absolutely pushed to the limit by gypsies. No matter how idealistic you may be about defending them, their actions are well-documented and undeniable and if you have the misfortune to be victimized by them, you will not forget it.
And at this point the split between the perpetually idealistic and pragmatic occurs, so well represented on this thread. If you want to be truly Christ-like, give em everything and they will take it. If you wish to protect yourself and be realistic, ideological liberals will knock you for it.
The voice of common sense and experience (especially by those with law enforcement credentials) speaks to me. The wishful thinking and cries for social justice are best performed from a distance, which may be the only condition that such an attitude can persist. Chris’ friend could answer that best for Irish folk.
And despite the criticisms, Loren has direct emotional experience with at least a bit of this community.
I love flamenco music and now that I know some of the irish travelers musicians names, I can get to appreciate that as well. But I have no truck with their lifestyle (the gitanos) and I can more appreciate their phenomen of history and existence than their daily lifestyles. This is a cruel bit of self-revelation because I then fall into another kind of idealism, that of appreciating a culture and its history more than the people themselves! This has been done with native Americans an awful lot.
The only reason I contributed dreaded speculations to this thread is because I have pondered this topic a lot, because of my contacts with the gitanos here…And my interest in American genealogy/history has always made me wonder how many people may have Traveller blood and not know it…I seek some understanding of how people act in the context of their cultures and seek these fine threads in day-to-day interactions. I think that many people who consider themselves Scots-Irish may have further refinements to their backgrounds if these issues are discussed and studied.
Over and out.
Well fellas, it seems like you’ve all found the secret to winning an arguement. Say “shut up. I’m right, you’re stupid,” and then leave the room. Excellent!
And Craig have you heard the version with Carlos Nunez, it really SMOKES!!
And The Wheel of Time Series also SMOKES!!
and by SMOKES I mean good.
Craig please explain how I misread the following
On 2002-09-25 15:25, Chuck_Clark wrote:
Bogus or shoddy home improvement scams are the principal occupation of the males, whereas the women engage heavily in confidence scams and outright thievery
As Roger said, Travellers are by far their own worst enemies and there is no justification for soem of things done by members of that community. I am in no way trying to be political correct or anything like it, the Traveller issue is a highly complex one and I wouldn’t know how to make sense of it all. I do know that issuing blanket statements putting entire communities down as scam artists and thieves is not doing anybody any favours and while the Travellers may be not as political sensitive in the States, over here a statement like that would have you through the courts in next to no time.
And now I am out of here too.
And my parting word is to say that Avanutria isn’t to be blamed for starting this thread.
The article referred to is quite fair, recognising that there is an apparently widespread problem with construction scams but not making any wild allegations that tar all travellers with the same brush. The reference in it to possible descent from “Irish minstrels” could well have led to sharing of some interesting information of a musical nature.
Av could hardly have anticipated yet another of these intemperate exchanges which, as far as I know, were pretty much unknown on C&F until a few weeks ago.
Now let’s get back to music and guacamole, and maybe what’s her name in the Little Black Number…
Peter,
I realize you were right about what Chuck said and I must have overlooked it. But I still feel it’s far from inflammatory and is just a general statement. Why do we have to constantly put in defensive statements when talking about certain groups. I mean common’ we are all adults here (except for MurphyStout).
Finger pointing and name calling and rasing the racist alarm is totally 90’s “old school”. Americans, myself included, have become a little bored after 10 years of intellect stifling political correctness demagoguery.
All of us here share a common interest and love of the Irish culture…we ought to assume the best of each other not the worst.
Now lets all hold hands and watch “Into the West” for the 89th time.
