Hi,
I play sax and clarinet (my apologies! ) and have taken the plunge and purchased an old wooden flute.
I’ll receive the flute in few days from the auction house but I was hoping someone could I identify the kind of flute I’ve actually bought?
I’m thinking an English 8-key? Forgive my ignorance.
I know buying any instrument, especially a wood one, sight unseen/played is a big no-no, but it was too good to pass up. Hmm… I may regret this!
Well, after a visit to my tech I’m looking forward to playing whatever it is. :mrgreen:
Welcome to the flute forum!
Fascinating keywork on your flute! I would be all over that with a bright light and magnification to get some sort of maker’s mark.
Curious Boehm style foot…sort of transitional with both lever touches and post and axle pivoting keys. My main concern would be if this was late enough to fall in the High Pitch era. Do you have a sounding length?
Hello and welcome Vaughan,
You’ve picked a nice looking instrument to begin your flute foray. It certainly has all the appearances of a French styled or manufactured instrument. Not so common is the metallic tuning barrel. Usually made from nickel silver or sterling silver on the more expensive models, they were often employed as a sleeve type repair for cracks. This may not be the case in this instance. Closer inspection may tell. As Bob advised you earlier, the best clue to identification is a maker/dealer’s mark. Sometimes these can be extremely faint in appearance and that’s before you factor in the wear caused by literally ages handling. Strong light and magnifying glass are good - I sometimes use a microscope if you happen to have one. Your tech will probably have the necessary. Let us know how you get on. Owen.
Concur on most likely a late 19 or early 20 century French simple system flute. Barrel crack seems visible, poking out from under the silver banding, in the first picture. I would budget for getting that repaired and the flute re-padded at minimum. If slide, between the headjoint and barrel, is frozen you are in for another bit of grief. Probably will also need to have the tennon thread replaced. If an accomplished player has trouble getting the flute to sound initially I strongly recommend that you get this flute to a competent repair person with experience working on antique flutes.
Good luck with your journey. Antique flutes are the best!
Yes, the keywork does look ‘French’, but I have seen several Swiss made flutes with similar keywork. I still would like a sounding length. It would be a pity if it were pitched at diapason normal.
Thanks all for the wonderful responses and information!
Once I receive the flute in a day or two I’ll endeavour to measure its sounding length (middle of embouchure hole to end, correct?). I’m hoping for A440 or A435 although I doubt I’ll be playing with other people any time soon. I’ll hunt for a makers’ marks or any identifying stamps and I’ll also post some better photos of the keywork and features. I know with clarinets the stamps usually wear off after a few years so I won’t be surprised if I can’t locate any markings.
Now that you all generally concur on it being a somewhat transitional French simple system I can see what you mean, although examples on the web seem older styled and less modern in their key mechanics. Posts and axles seem to be a later wooden flute feature?
I’m really hoping there’s no cracks, or at least un-repaired cracks.
Hi Vaughan,
Rick Wilson has a web page on simple system French flutes, including a later example which
looks similar to the instrument in question, especially regarding the foot. Here’s a link: http://www.oldflutes.com/french.htm
Regards, Joseph.
2TOOTS, in looking at Rick Wilson’s page, I see nothing like dubrosa22’s foot joint. When Lot and other makers in France adopted the Boehm foot they used Boehm’s mechanism in toto: post and axle pivots. Dubrosa22’s foot has distinctive lever actuating touches for the c# and C keys. I’ve seen something like this before. . . reminiscent of some clarinet mechanisms, but I can’t call it to mind. Blast! perhaps one of the makers in what is now Czechoslovakia. . .?
Thanks, 2TOOTS.
Yes, Bob it does appear different in many regards to the French simple system examples on that page and elsewhere, and every other simple system. Kind of a combination of German-French-Boehm???
And the foot keys do resemble a clarinet lower joint, which is probably why I was drawn to this flute in the first place. Can’t wait to get me hands on this one!
Nice one Bob, That was my 17 year old son’s first attempt to message and help someone on this forum.
In his message to Vaughan he states that one later example on the page looks " similar " to the flute in question. Whilst far from being a carbon copy, in his eyes at least he could see some connection. I just wish you had been less dismissive with your response. Owen.
Definitely French style. The foot key mechanism is not uncommon and is very similar to that Böhm first used. A good read of Rick Wilson’s website (not just the French flute pages) will show you…
2TOOTS, I was unaware that your account is a ‘tag-team account.’ Do tell me if there are any other members of a committee using this account. I wouldn’t want to spread offense any further.
Speaking of all things Gallic, I spotted two beautiful French beauties on ebay at the moment. One is a Godfroy 8 key, and is clearly marked as such. the other is a 7 key marked JOUVE. I have done some research on the latter, and will divulge my meager findings to those interested a little later. The thing that caught my immediate attention where the striking similarities in the key work, especially on the unusual feet. ( This one should appeal to you Bob - being something of a footman ).
My question is could the latter have been made by Godfroy and sold through this Parisian music publisher ( dealer ) ?
see links below http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181693330654?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A cursory hands-on inspection found the following:
No seized barrels/slides or tenons.
No missing or damaged keys.
All pads are present but mushy yuck.
Springs are present and working.
1.8cm crack in middle section of the body (2nd ‘joint’, the lower left section in the above photo). The crack starts at the top of the tenon receiver (this ‘female’ tenon is lined with silver - a repair?) here the wood is quite thick so I’m not sure how far the crack penetrates yet. But it will have to be pinned/glued if it is yet unrepaired.
Tuning barrel is lined in silver and as estimated by astute forum members here it is evidently to repair a crack.
Cork stopper stuck in headjoint (the crown and screw comes out; the cork thread has broken)
Tenon thread obviously needs to be replaced.
Poor thing was dry, dirty and dusty so I gave it a good drink of bore oil and gave the keywork a quick clean.
I can see no hint of makers stamp on any part of the flute. But I’ll get out the magnifying glass.
The keywork appears to be solid silver not plated brass (unless it has very little plate wear) is this typical? My woodwind repair/restoration experience is with mid 20th saxophones. I love the silver C roller!
Most keys are stamped with an ‘0’, one an ‘E’ and ‘0’ and one a ‘7’. I doubt that will point to a maker.
Cannot be totally certain from photos, but from both yours and the auction ones the keys look to me to be maillechort (Google it) - nickel silver. That is by far the commonest material used on flutes of this general type. Earlier and very high end ones had sterling, but most after c1835 have maillechort. It was almost never plated, so you won’t find traces of worn plating. They either used solid silver or no silver at all, with very rare exceptions. Part of the point in the “white bronze” nickel silver alloys is that, polished up and depending on copper content, they can look deceivingly like silver or gold. Some of the French alloys are very (confusingly) white… But remember, silver tarnishes black, maillechort just goes dull and patinates. There will probably be (or have been before cleaning) traces of verdigris in places betraying the copper content. Moreover, most French flutes with silver keys were hallmarked, so no hallmarks, almost certainly not silver (this isn’t the case for other countries, BTW). You can clean up the keys and rings safely with Brasso or metal wadding for brass-type metals.
What is the flute’s “sounding length” in millimetres? - Centre of embouchure to foot end, measured on assembled flute, slide closed.
Thanks Jem!
I think you are right about the maillechort keywork, that makes much more sense. It’s overall duller than silver I’ve work with. However, I’ve not known nickel silver (in modern clarinets) to tarnish and then polish quite like this. Much more black on the cloth and brighter results faster.
There was definitely bright green gunk in the silver tenon receivers and also around some of the posts suggesting a verdigris closer to brass (with it’s copper content, as you said).
) and have taken the plunge and purchased an old wooden flute.
