Geoffrey Ellis "Selkie" vertically held flute

[Geoffrey_Ellis]

@Moof

If there’s a call for them (there might not be), 3D printing would probably be the best bet. I used recorder thumb rests on my low whistles, lined with a strip of silicone to make them fit. But as recorder players presumably also want to look after the finish of their instruments, perhaps this kind of clip doesn’t cause damage even without the silicone? I’m not really sure – all my instruments are metal!
Anyway, the clips are made of plastic with a slight give to it, and if something like that’s available for 3D printers, it’d probably work fine. The advantage of printing them would be that if they had to be positioned where they’d risk partly obstructing a tone hole, they could be shaped to avoid it.

All of the clip-on type I’ve seen for recorders are designed for plastic or resin instruments by the look of it. Presumably this is because the plastic snap-on style rests can be force (however gently) onto the body without worrying about scratching it up. Blayne Chastain experimented with some of these style of rests on one of the Selkie prototypes, and he said they did mar the finish a bit.

This has been the difficulty. A one piece plastic clip-on style rest probably cannot be deployed without the potential of marring the finish. Other styles that are adjustable or that have some type of clamping effect, they get much more complex in terms of manufacturing them. I have not yet personally experimented with clip-on types of rests, so I mean to obtain some and test them out. I might figure out a way to get them on without scratching the finish.

If it came down to manufacturing, no doubt a 3D printer would be a worthy approach if one had access. My ideal would be to find a pre-made option that would fit the Selkie. Aulos makes recorder thumb rests (again, snap-on plastic) for a couple of dollars. If I could make something like that work it would be the most logical route (buying and learning to utilize a 3D printer might be costly it money and time! . But I’m open to suggestions from anyone who has trod this path before me.

[pancelticpiper]

On the face of it having a rest for a Low Whistle or vertical flutes seems unnecessary because thousands of trad musicians across many cultures back to time immemorial have done fine without such.

But I tell you when I got a “Chieftain Gold” (like the Biblical “thing of brass”) Low D I needed something! It was by far the heaviest whistle I’ve ever held. It was very tiring on the hands.

My solution was to get a Bari Sax strap, just the right length, and with a plastic clip that I could clip onto the bell of the whistle without scratching the metal.

[paddler]

I don’t think these Selkies will need a thumb support because they are much lighter than your average whistle.

As I pointed out before, the F Selkie weighs 43 grams. For comparison, my aluminum F whistle by Colin Goldie weighs 141 grams, and my MK low D aluminum whistle weighs 212 grams.
And I used to have a brass Reyburn low D that felt like it was almost double the weight of the MK low D. And that ended up being the main reason I sold. There is certainly such a thing as an instrument that is too heavy to hold with relaxed hands, but the Selkie is not that.

Weight just isn’t an issue here. Stability is the issue. Compared to a transverse flute you just need to maintain an additional/alternate contact point. With that contact point there is no fatigue issue due to weight. And I do not think that a thumb support would really provide the stability needed to solve the stability problem. It provides support in the wrong direction.

I am also not a fan of thumb supports on heavier instruments. I find that after a while they just hurt your thumb joints. I also like to have some freedom to move my thumbs around a little bit and fine tune the comfort for better relaxation.
And as pancelticpiper quite rightly pointed out, people all over the world have been playing vertically held embouchure flutes for thousands of years without needing thumb supports.

[Geoffrey_Ellis]

This is very reassuring . The task of trying to create a thumb rest option was daunting. It’s one of those things that feels like a massive time-suck, taking me away from the actual flute-making end of things, so if players can manage without any add-ons that is all good news.

[Moof]

@paddler

And as pancelticpiper quite rightly pointed out, people all over the world have been playing vertically held embouchure flutes for thousands of years without needing thumb supports.

It depends how bad their arthritis was, I guess! If some of your joints are fused, meaning the fingers are permanently straight, you’re already doing a fair bit of adaptation. Not everybody’s got Dalek hands, of course, but I know other older players who’ve needed major hand surgery that left them with restricted movement.

I don’t use thumb rests, but I still can’t hold a whistle without something grippy on the back. It’s not the weight (my Feadógs weigh almost nothing), it’s that I can’t be as strategic or flexible about finger placement as other people.

I guess if I had a flute with nothing at all to hold onto, I’d have to do the same as Pancelticpiper. I made a whistle strap from a length of sash cord with a plastic hook fastened to the bottom when I was trying to play an MK Pro; when I put the whistle down it looked as if I was on my way to be executed on Tyburn Tree, but it did support it pretty well.

[paddler]

@Moof

@paddler

And as pancelticpiper quite rightly pointed out, people all over the world have been playing vertically held embouchure flutes for thousands of years without needing thumb supports.

It depends how bad their arthritis was, I guess! If some of your joints are fused, meaning the fingers are permanently straight, you’re already doing a fair bit of adaptation. Not everybody’s got Dalek hands, of course, but I know other older players who’ve needed major hand surgery that left them with restricted movement.

I don’t use thumb rests, but I still can’t hold a whistle without something grippy on the back. It’s not the weight (my Feadógs weigh almost nothing), it’s that I can’t be as strategic or flexible about finger placement as other people.

I’m with you there Moof. I have had terrible problems with Dupuytren’s Contracture over the past few years and have had major surgeries on both my hands. I was unable to play flutes or whistles at all for three years or so. Only recently have I been able to pick them up again. Now I have the use of my hands back again, sort of, but my flexibility, strength and dexterity is greatly reduced. I’m fully engaged in, and committed to, the process of optimizing my hold on flutes and whistles, and it has helped me get back to playing. In contrast, I’ve been completely unable to get back to playing any stringed instruments. Fretting chords on a guitar, bouzouki or even a mandolin is just out of the question nowadays. I struggle even to hold onto a plectrum. Everything has become so much harder than it used to be, and it is really frustrating, but it is an incurable condition, so I just have to make the most of what time I have left.

[pancelticpiper]

@Moof

If some of your joints are fused, meaning the fingers are permanently straight, you’re already doing a fair bit of adaptation.

Right, and I see a trend in the Boehm flute world which recognises that the inherent poor ergonomics of transverse flutes needs to be addressed.

At the last NFA convention I attended (several years ago) there were makers who had come up with ergonomic flute conversion kits which included a vertical headjoint, thumb-rest, and in some cases an upper-hand rest, and/or a strap.

I played a couple of these and I think they’re on the right track. At this point in my life they’re the only kind of Boehm flute I could play.

Here’s one I tried, it was great https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We6jwe5gCcY&t=106s

Another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd7HTanZMqI

[Moof]

I thought about this more last night. I came to the conclusion that if I bought one of Geoffrey’s end-blown flutes and felt I could learn to play it if it had a thumb rest, I’d probably glue two small neodymium magnets to it. One above the usual thumb placement and one below.

It would make it possible for me to play it by attaching a thumb rest to the magnets, without making it impossible for someone else to use it when I got too old. Sometimes with disability you just have to accept things need non-reversible modifications.

I’m a fan of magnets, making much use of them to attach things to wheelchairs, rails, and anything else that has enough ferromagnetic content. In my view it’s frankly unreasonable that whistles don’t.

[paddler]

@Moof

I thought about this more last night. I came to the conclusion that if I bought one of Geoffrey’s end-blown flutes and felt I could learn to play it if it had a thumb rest, I’d probably glue two small neodymium magnets to it. One above the usual thumb placement and one below.

It would make it possible for me to play it by attaching a thumb rest to the magnets, without making it impossible for someone else to use it when I got too old. Sometimes with disability you just have to accept things need non-reversible modifications.

I’m a fan of magnets, making much use of them to attach things to wheelchairs, rails, and anything else that has enough ferromagnetic content. In my view it’s frankly unreasonable that whistles don’t.

Another non-destructive approach I’ve tried on this F Selkie is to simply get a heavy duty rubber band and double or treble it around the flute body, and then slide it up into the position you need to take weight on the the thumb.
It works pretty well and is trivial to apply, remove, and reposition. I found that you can get a lot of support on the thumb without needing a long tab sticking out. Something that just stops the thumb slipping out of place seems to be plenty on a flute this light.

[Moof]

@paddler

Another non-destructive approach I’ve tried on this F Selkie is to simply get a heavy duty rubber band and double or treble it around the flute body, and then slide it up into the position you need to take weight on the the thumb.

I’ve found that works well too, as do ring gaskets. But the best sort are made of rubber, and of course I have to be allergic to it. #eyeroll

I’ve never tried wooden whistles for the same reason. I don’t have a wood allergy as far as I know, but I’m pretty confident of my ability to develop one. I wouldn’t have a choice with a specialist flute, but it’s a bit different; there’s a whole range of metal and Delrin whistles available, so it’s easy to stick to them.

[David_Cooper]

@Moof

I thought about this more last night. I came to the conclusion that if I bought one of Geoffrey’s end-blown flutes and felt I could learn to play it if it had a thumb rest, I’d probably glue two small neodymium magnets to it. One above the usual thumb placement and one below.

It would make it possible for me to play it by attaching a thumb rest to the magnets, without making it impossible for someone else to use it when I got too old. Sometimes with disability you just have to accept things need non-reversible modifications.

I’m a fan of magnets, making much use of them to attach things to wheelchairs, rails, and anything else that has enough ferromagnetic content. In my view it’s frankly unreasonable that whistles don’t.

That is a brilliant idea, and flute makers could build them into instruments as standard if the walls are thick enough while individual players would then sort out their own thumb rest that clicks into place. I’m now using tiny neodymium magnets to attach fipples to quenillas, and their strength is superb. On some of the heavier quenas and quenachos that I make out of resin, I carve a dip into the tube to serve as a thumb rest, which works well, but magnets for an optional attachment would be less work and better preserve the aesthetics of the pattern on the tube. Perhaps a standard magnet size and separation distance between the magnets should be established. I wonder putting four magnets on the corners of a 5x1 cm rectangle would be reasonable (with the 1cm being a straight-line distance rather than a curve round the outside of the tube).

[Geoffrey_Ellis]

Great ideas all around!

It would be very easy for me to simply include some rubber o-rings of the appropriate size. Like paddler’s rubber band solution, they are mobile, easy to deploy, cost virtually nothing and are non-destructive/non-permanent.

Moof, I don’t think you’d need to fear a wood allergy, at least not with my flutes. I tend to avoid woods that can be sensitizing, and the finishes that I use create a barrier between the player and the woods. In the world of wooden flutes, there are a lot of favorite woods that are allergenic or potentially so, and oil finishes are common. Putting an oil finish on a flute won’t protect you from the oils in the wood that can be bothersome. But I use a multi-part, non-oil finish that seals the wood off (so to speak). So far I’ve not heard from any customers about sensitivity to woods as a result of this.

I think the magnet idea is cool, but on the manufacturing end I’d be reluctant to try it, not least because the walls on these flutes is quite thin. Embedding a magnet might prove tricky. Though to be fair, some of those rare earth type magnets are tiny! Small and strong, so it might not take much of a magnet to make a functional anchor point for a rest.

[Moof]

@Geoffrey_Ellis

Great ideas all around!
Moof, I don’t think you’d need to fear a wood allergy, at least not with my flutes. I tend to avoid woods that can be sensitizing, and the finishes that I use create a barrier between the player and the woods.

That’s good to hear! I never had any allergies until I developed a chronic illness, it’s really annoying.

@Geoffrey_Ellis

I think the magnet idea is cool, but on the manufacturing end I’d be reluctant to try it, not least because the walls on these flutes is quite thin. Embedding a magnet might prove tricky. Though to be fair, some of those rare earth type magnets are tiny! Small and strong, so it might not take much of a magnet to make a functional anchor point for a rest.

I’d only really thought of applying magnets externally. You’d need thick walls to be able to carve out enough to insert even a thin magnetised sheet, and unless they’re bonded in resin, magnets often have a high enough iron content to make corrosion risk a consideration.

Also: “Oi mate, will you keep your capo spring away from my flute!”

[Geoffrey_Ellis]

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[Geoffrey_Ellis]

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[Geoffrey_Ellis]

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[maki]

Latest word on the Selkie?
Im all in on the Quimera when you get them in stock again.
Love the musical big brain discussion, thanks.

[Geoffrey_Ellis]

@maki

Latest word on the Selkie?
Im all in on the Quimera when you get them in stock again.
Love the musical big brain discussion, thanks.

The latest word is that I’ve been doing a lot of final tweaks to prototypes, which are probably the final iteration. I’ll have some of them field tested, and then if all goes well they will be officially released.

I’ll definitely give a shout in this thread when the time comes!

[maki]

Very exciting news. Love the idea of stabilized wood.
Im on your mailing list.

[paddler]

I’m reviving this thread because I have some new information to share. Geoffrey recently sent me a couple of new prototypes, including a low D Selkie as well as a slightly modified F Selkie.
They are both made of maple (I believe) with a faux bamboo finish, and a tiny section of blackwood in the head.
They have a low-key, subtle aesthetic that is not flashy, but looks very nice in person. I’ve attached a couple of pics below showing the low D and low F side by side.

As I mentioned in the initial posts about the first low F, these are very lightweight. The low D Selkie weighs only 2.4 oz, and the low F Selkie weighs just 1.8 oz!

For comparison, here are some weights for similar sized whistles in those keys:

MK Kelpie low D (non-tunable aluminum whistle) = 7.4 oz
Goldie low F (tunable aluminum whistle) = 5 oz
Grinter low F (thin walled wooden whistle) = 3.9 oz

A Generation High D (nickle, blue top) weighs 1.2 oz!

I’ve added a couple of brief sound samples below. Please bear in mind that these are still prototypes in final phases of tweaking, so some tuning adjustments are still being made, based on feedback from others besides me.

Also, I am very definitely not a xiao player, so I’m still trying to get used to the new embouchure. This requires adaptation, even for a transverse flute player. I have some notes about this at the end of the post. The embouchures are different and respond in subtly different ways. This is an ongoing challenge for me. The tuning is quite sensitive to embouchure input, and I’m still new to it so I’m not very consistent about how I blow … or whether I get a good tone. The grip is also different and it is still a challenge for me to maintain embouchure stability while playing, especially across certain note transitions, and at speed.

I’ve chosen some pieces for the sound samples below that are deliberately challenging in terms of switching between octaves and crossing the octave boundary via C# which is the trickiest note to play while maintaining control of these flutes. This is definitely a work in progress for me, so you’ll hear the struggle in the sound samples. I’ve only had these for a couple of days and will be sending them along to Pancelticpiper tomorrow, so these are just a couple of quick and dirty samples to give you some idea of the sound and potential. I think these could sound really nice in the right hands.

The first sound sample is a couple of scales (D major and G major … with oxxooo fingering for Cnat), and a slow air (The Parting of Friends) to give you an idea of the basic sound and quality of tone on the new low D Selkie.

Selkie low D Sound Sample 1

I chose the tune in the second sound sample because it contains quite a few quick jumps back and forth between octaves, and incorporates quite a few C# notes. These are both tricky to get used to on these flutes for a non-xiao player because of the new embouchure, and because of the new grip requirements in order to maintain stability of the flute. So you’ll hear me struggling before I crash and burn in a faded out ending. I would have liked to do a better job of all this, but I just ran out of time and was regressing as the struggle went on. Again, I think there is great potential here, but I still have a learning curve to climb.

Selkie low D Sound Sample 2

Just a quick final note on the grip/stability issues. One problem that is unique to these, compared to either a whistle or a transverse flute, is that you need to hold the flute against your lip in a stable way and prevent it from either moving too close or getting too far away, or rotating around the long axis of the bore, or changing the angle of the flute body relative to the air flow. And you need to do all of this without being able to utilize the kind of contact points you would use in a transverse flute grip (opposing pressure between hands and chin) or being able to stabilize the mouth end of the flute between your lips as you would with a whistle. And you have to maintain some fingers down that you would not normally do as a flute player. Non of this is insurmountable, but it is definitely a new challenge, and for me it is compounded by the fact that I have recently had surgeries on both hands so I’m already struggling with dexterity.

I’m really looking forward to hearing how others get along with these instruments. I believe Geoffrey is getting very close to releasing these. So far Geoffrey has played these himself, I’ve tested a few, and Blayne Chastain has had his hands on them. Pancelticpiper should have this batch in the next few days.