I’m not a fan of the “huffy-puffy”-ness, but I really liked his playing in Dinky’s Reel.
Thanks for the info, Cathy. I’m not sure I understand the difference between how you are describing “slow” or “triplet” rolls and regular rolls.
But it hardly matters much since I can barely do any kind of rolls in such a small amount of time. At the speed they play this thing I think maybe if I play at all, I will just skip all the notes except the three at the beginning and end of the first part, and the high notes of those ocatve jumps in the second part and just sit out all the rest.
I think I’m the worst flute player that ever existed.
Nah, you’re not. There are worse, don’t worry. And hey, we’re all bad at some point (and it just takes people like me a really long time to get better); you can’t get more advanced without being a beginner.
Anyway, ARGH, if only I could explain …
Basically, it’d be just like playing a high “a” followed by three evenly spaced low A’s (ditto on the B’s) with little cuts or taps in between to separate those three low A’s. “Triplet” is the wrong term, now that I think about it … … I just think of them as triplets because it’s one long note divided into three shorter ones. “Slow” roll might still be an OK description because basically, it’s a roll that spreads evenly out across the full beat as opposed to, say, a roll with a longer first part followed by the rest of the roll notes in a fast snap (or vice versa).
Far better minds than mine are still wrestling to explain this, but if you were to plug the following into your Five Line Skink or other abc reader, you’d HOPEFULLY see little grace-note-like objects separating the main notes, like …
X:1
T:Dinky’s Alt B
K: D Dorian
aA{B}A{G}A aA{B}A{G}A|a2bg agef|gB{c}B{A}B gB{c}B{A}B|g2af gfeg|
aA{B}A{G}A aA{B}A{G}A|a2bg agef|~g3e f2 ed cdBc A2|
But as someone mentioned earlier, you could even just tongue or glottal stop them for now, so you’d just have four eighth notes, ala aAAA aAAA, etc. Then as you felt more confident in terms of separating them with finger movements you could use little cuts or taps (I think some people call them strikes?).
Those “grace separators” on an evenly distributed series of the same notes seem to be quite common with pipers in particular. Listen to some players like Louise Mulcahy (a flute player and wonderful piper as well) and you’ll hear them eventually, especially in the piping. They’re just broad, evenly spaced sets of notes separated by wee little “blips”.
diane, i’m afraid i can sympathize with your frustration. the only way to develop faster rolls (especially on b and a) is to keep trying them. it really takes time, but it’s important because rolls are so idiomatic of itm.
i’ve heard the terms “short/fast roll” and “long/slow roll” applied to different things. the way i understand them is as follows:
a long/slow roll is used to break a longer note into three shorter ones of identical length and in-tempo. this is a very common figure in reels, where there’s a 1/8 on the beat, followed by a dotted 1/4 off beat. eg. at the beginning of “sean reid’s”: |D~G2 B~G2| if you played this D G (cut 1L or 3L) G (tap 1R or 1+2R) G, breaking the dotted 1/4 G into three 1/8, that’s what i understand to be a “long roll”.
a short/fast roll is played as fast as possible as one single ornament. a long note is broken up into one long and two short ones. this can happen at the end or (less commonly) at the beginning of the long note. in a reel, it is typical to do this for a long note on the beat: |~g2a …| becomes 1/4 G (cut) 1/16 G (tap) 1/16 G. alternatively but less commonly, a fast roll could be played at the beginning of a long note, eg. when i play “drowsy maggie”: |~E2BE …| becomes 1/16 E (cut) 1/16 E (tap) 1/8 E 1/8 B 1/8 E etc. it’s not necessarily exactly 1/16 for the short ones, but i hope you get the picture. that’s what i call a short/fast roll.
What’s really wierd is I think it’s easier to do a D roll than an A or B. I was playing a tune and a D roll just suddenly appeared.
I wish I know how Podbean Michael (or the rest of you for that matter) was able to make the rolls sound so rolly. Yeah, I know, practice practice. My fingers almost always miss hitting the flute on the taps. C’mon you guys! It’s that big stick right below you! Why do you miss it?
I think D rolls are much easier, too. My A rolls are slowly getting better but B rolls are still my nemeses.
Keep at it! I don’t miss hitting the flute anymore, but I still miss the fingerholes if we’re going really fast. And don’t even talk to me about the G-sharp key.
(Might want to try keeping your fingers a little lower/closer to the flute, though – the photo at left is probably a good “Wrong” illustration …)
Well, I will tell you how I did it: I did a cut with my G finger and another cut with my E finger where the tap would otherwise be. Just came out of the blue. I think I’ll keep doing it that way.
You’ve got to be quick about it, though, since these really aren’t quite notes you’re playing, and they sound less notelike than most.
(Note: Some flutes seem to “prefer” that you keep the left-hand first finger down on middle D because otherwise it seems to vent a bit strangely, but see what works for you)
I think that’s sort of what I’d be at for the second ‘D’ but when the leftmost ‘O’ is an ‘X’ then shifting the ‘O’ on the fourth line one to the right seems to be a bit easier (as Diane has it, I think). In other words for a low ‘D’ flicking the ‘E’ finger rather than the F sharp finger seems a bit easier. I now have to unlearn 20 plus years of whatever way I had been playing these. They never did sound too D-roll anyway.
I’d never heard “Dinky’s” before, but the third and fourth measures sound like a bit of Dick Gossip’s. It was driving me crazy–saying to myself, what does that sound like?
Northern styles prefer rolls and crans, and in that regional style rolls are surely idiomatic, but there’s much less rolling with Sligo style, and even less in a Galway style. Rolls are important, I agree - and they do take time and patience - but they are much over-emphasized, IMO. A steady rhythm and feel, or lift, is much more important to ITM, regardless of region, than a well executed roll on every note. Beginners, in particular, should worry less about a polished B or A roll and spend more time on the pulse and flow of the tunes themselves. More often than not, I think, playing with a solid rhythm and lift is greatly delayed by inserting difficult rolls. The former is crucial, the latter a personal choice that is often unnecessary.
I’m going to share my thoughts, scrambled as they are, with two up-front disclaimers: Gordon is someone you should probably listen to, as I’ve seen him give much good advice during my time on the boards. If I’d have listened to him earlier I’d very likely be a better flutist today.
First, I think it’s true that rolls in particular are overly emphasized…and I think one reason for that is that flutists who come to ITM after they’ve already learned to play flute in another style are just drawn to rolls like a magnet. I was; I was just possessed by the desire to learn how to make that sound. Rolls have a certain “magic” about them on the flute, and learners are drawn to them like moths to a flame (and sometimes with similar results?).
Rhythm is important…it’s vital. When you are playing dance music there is nothing more important than rhythm.
That said, good rhythm isn’t enough…you can have the best rhythm in the world but if you play gratuitously wrong notes and have a tone like an asthmatic donkey, can’t play in tune, or simply can’t play the tune, then your music fails of its purpose.
Realistically, a flutist starting in ITM has a hell of a lot to learn. You can’t just set perfect rhythm apart as an absolute prerequisite for learning to play the flute! Otherwise, you’ll spend your whole life and never learn to play one single tune. Because you’ll never get there.
So you work hard on rhythm…and you work hard on tone, because tone is one of the very hardest things for a flutist to learn in the Irish style. In some ways, flutists not trained in another style first may actually have an advantage here, because they don’t already have an embouchure in place to unlearn.
Somewhere in there you have to learn the tunes. Now I personally don’t care how you learn them, that’s a different argument for a different thread. But I do care that you learn them. Don’t fall into the mistake of thinking that you can just pick up tunes on the fly when you really can’t.
Now don’t get me wrong, there are many fine musicians who really can do just that…because they’ve been playing this music for twenty, thirty, forty, even fifty or more years. Try to emulate that skill too early and all you become is a psychotic songbird who hunts-and-pecks continuously around the tune without ever playing a proper note of it, setting the other players’ teeth on edge. So take a recorder (the kind that records, not the kind you blow! ). Look up the tune. Get someone in the session to teach it to you note by note…whatever you have to do, you have to actually learn the tunes, and that means actually knowing the damn notes. If you don’t know them, you’ll stand out like a sore thumb.
Soemwhere in there you’ll start learning ornamentation…it’s inevitable and unavoidable, because I think more people than you realize are drawn to this music and to these tunes simply by the irrational desire to learn to make “that sound.” Hopefully you’ll listen and try to get a feel for how to use it, when to use it, and perhaps more importantly, when not to use it. Especially at first, you’re going to have your hands full just working some cuts and taps into the tune. Rolls add still another level of complexity. Get the cuts and taps down first and you’ll be in a better shape to throw some rolls in tastefully. But don’t roll every note, it just makes you sound like you don’t really know the tune, and I hate that!!! (in case you couldn’t tell)
And in the middle of all of that, listen to the tunes over and over again. Try to get them so deep into your head that you dream them or hum them in the shower without even realizing it. There is a lot to these tunes and you won’t catch much of it on just a few listenings. Get a slow-downer program or Audacity. Play it back at half speed. Study it. Listen for when they breathe, and how they phrase. Then play it at regular speed and listen to it not note for note but for overall flow and direction. Listen for the variations…some are obvious, but some are very subtle and you’ll miss them over and over again if you don’t really listen closely.
Ok, that’s my rant. Yes, I’m in an odd mood tonight and my writing and my thoughts are a scrambled mess. But I did have something to say, I hope I’ve been able to make at least a little sense here.
Speaking of, we always talk about going from “classical” flute to Irish flute … just came back from my first rehearsal with our brand-new community orchestra after 20-odd years of not playing the Boehmwriter beyond a few “usual suspect” pieces in weddings, a funny little concerto with the local mandolin orchestra, etc.
And hey, we’re all bad at some point (and it just takes people like me a really long time to get better); you can’t get more advanced without being a beginner.
… I just think of them as triplets because it’s one long note divided into three shorter ones. “Slow” roll might still be an OK description because basically, it’s a roll that spreads evenly out across the full beat as opposed to, say, a roll with a longer first part followed by the rest of the roll notes in a fast snap (or vice versa).
!