There is no reason at all to feel bad about appreciating the art of another culture.
M’mm Run rig great band.
http://www.runrig.co.uk/
I only made mention of Irish music and culture to not be pedantic, or repetitious. Certainly what I’m talking about applied to a host of other cultures as well, I didn’t want to go to the trouble of listing them, is all. Also I’m much more familiar with Irish music and culture than any other in the first place.
I DO have recordings of 19th century musicians, pipers such as Dinney Delaney and Patsy Touhey. They recorded in the 20th century but learned their music in the 19th. I never tried to put any sort of “rosy glow” on what these people went through; but it was considered remarkable at the time for all that how joyous the Irish were early in the 19th, in the midst of what many considered the worst poverty in Europe.
It’s the discrepancy between this music’s origins and the environment it’s in now that intrigues me. It needn’t put anyone off playing whatever they want to.
Although…the recordings you’re referring to from the 20s with the big band lineups were innovations of the time, led by first generation emigrants like Paddy Killoran, who’d learned to play back home. No one knows precisely what went into putting together these ensembles with the saxes and banjos, etc. As I remarked above, they came long after the first recordings of ITM, which were cylinders made in 1899 at the Feis Ceoil. Patsy Touhey made many cylinders in the years after; the first “trad” Irish 78 is a banjo/accordion (!) duet from 1918, I think it was. It’s considered traditional especially in contrast to some of the super stiff records made by note reading studio musicians of the time.
Has anyone else heard the “Secret Museum of Mankind” CDs released by Yazoo? These are great, early examples of recorded music by cultures worldwide.
Not beaten up, but mostly because I always eschewed those who beat others up. But, I did have the experience that people in college would come to my place to, uhmmm, alter their states at my expense, and would insist on listening to my roommate’s records. I did lay down the law occasionally. Once I put on “Montrose” by Steeleye Span. It was a great hit, and they wore out my record, got another, and wore out that one. It wasn’t that nobody liked folk music (or Gentle Giant for that matter) per se, they just didn’t want anything unfamiliar.
Oh, and there were only like two people who would put up with my dulcimer playing.
Yeah, I’d probly beat you up for the dulcimer playin’ at that age. 
I went to a folk festival thingie where our history band gave a presentation in kind of an open-mic order. I endured about 20 minutes of fancy folk autoharp that made me feel mean-spirited and cold-hearted to so dislike it! Way more annoying than dulcimer, which can after all, be narcotic in its effect.
Hey, man, Mimi Farina played Autoharp to Richard’s dulcimer. Small world.
Yeh, I didn’t like them either…grrrrr. But don’t get the Weekender goin about collegy and collegy-appeal folksingers…I still like that scene in Animal House with the guitar and the cherry song.
Sorry, Kevin. I have to disagree. I don’t think that ‘joyous’ enters into it. The tunes in the tradition are mostly dance tunes, which by definition have to be fairly fast and bouncy in feel. I think that you’re projecting something that doesn’t enter into it onto the Irish dance music tradition - putting ‘feeling’ into your playing, in the sense of emotion. People learned to play because many people could dance. and wanted to, but they needed music. Dancing was the driving force behind the playing of Irish traditional music until the 60s, when it became a much more social event in its own right, rather than as an extension of a dance gathering. And ITM was always a powerful indicator of identity, most especially in the 19th century, when so-called ‘cultural nationalism’ became more prominent - playing an instrument or dancing well was an expression of Irish-ism, not just a pastime. I don’t believe that it’s either helpful or accurate to project emotions or ascribe feelings to an entire culture, as it existed more than a century ago, based on a few field recordings of ITM.
You are free to disagree, of course - but this is my opinion as an Irish citizen - and musician - today.
Deirdre
You are, of course, right in saying that a discrepancy exists between the cultural situation of the music in the 19th century and today - but (to me) that simply illustrates the strength of the tradition - had it remained tied to its 19th century geographic location, instrumentation, and styles, it would probably be heard today ONLY when those early field recordings are played. And, in fact, probably the biggest discrepancy is actually the separation of the music from dancing, rather than any geographical or technological changes.
I guess I should feel lucky…my region has a community orchestra and numerous free public music events of various kinds. Our high school has a grammy award winning music program, and is on the lower end of school costs per pupil. I would say that among the people I know, there is a reasonable representation of ex band-nerds, some of whom still play. My 30-40-something neighbor has frequent rock jam sessions in her home…I can hear them from my house. And I could play a lot more often with other people if I had the time.
I don’t see the domestic music environment being as dire as you represent.
Robin 
And what was Dancing used to express?? Perhaps using the word “joyous” is not the best word, but they sure weren’t just shaking their groove thang…Dance is expression, as music is expression. We can ask “expression of what?” I would think that some of that expression would include joy, or some emotions that could be at least in some way connected to that. It’s hard, as modern people, since we may use not only words, but also perceptions, philosophies, etc., that really wasn’t part of the inner world of someone in a different culture in a different time. BUT, that said, I think that most human beings share certain common emotions–the experience of those emotions and the expression of them may be different, but they can still be seen to be related. I would think “joy” is an emotion of the human family, even if it’s experienced or expressed differently. One of the definitions of “joy” in the dictionary is “the emotion evoked by well-being, success, or good fortune or by the prospect of possessing what one desires” (Mirriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary–tenth edition). Sounds pretty modern, but I would think that even in traditional agrarian societies there were times when those emotions were felt, although the reasons for them were probably very different than what we experience today.
Another aspect is that not all Traditional Irish music is dance music–there are also airs, laments, etc. I would say that listening to tunes such as “Blind Mary”, or “Bantry Girls Lament”, one is filled with a sense of deep grief and melancholy, but overall of deep feeling–if those tunes are not about feeling, then I don’t know what is. Music was a form of communication, not so much of ideas, but of stories, feelings, moods, and so forth. Our modern vocabulary just doesn’t work in talking about it. The music spoke for itself, it was a strong voice of the people, and a way to tell their story. It’s difficult to talk about it without sounding like one is idealizing it, but to say that it wasn’t about emotions isn’t entirely accurate either. Even the most unemotional synth-pop music is trying to express something about both those who produce it and those who listen to it. I don’t see how music can’t be about emotions, although, again, trying to describe it in modern terms probably doesn’t do an adequate job of it. It’s worth talking about, though.
Thanks for starting this thread, Kevin. I find it particularly interesting.
One of the things I like most about being me is that when something touches my soul I dont analize it or compair it or question it. I let it have its way with me. Music has always been a part of my life. In the fourties and early fifties it was Al Jolson, in the early sixties it was Bob Dylan and Joan B, and Mississippy John Hert and Josh White, and the Beatles and the Stones and on and on and on. But it was always music that moved my soul. That opened my eyes or changed my perspective. I learned of the plight of the Black man in this country through music, and the plight of the pennyless farmers and poverty stricken in my own country as well as around the world. In those days it was my voice that carried me into the world of making music. I could do just about anything with it. Irish trad has alway touched me in some way when I heard it. Always wanted to make it mine. Just never had the time. Now Im learning it. But only those tunes that hit me in the gut. I dont concern myself with words like contempery or traditional. Music is a direct emotional expression. It is universal in its ability to canvey the human condition, be it a gutter poor housewife sweating over a steaming pot of lye making soap for her family or selabrating some joyus and meaningful victory over some of lifes hurdles. Music is how we as a species can comunicate universaly. It is magic. Yes there are people who make a lot of money with it, who change it and muddy it up but I see no lak of the real thing. It is everywhere. For sure there is some I cant deal with but heck I just don`t listen to it. Unless it sneaks up on me. Music keeps my head screwed on now. The flute will be my voice some day and the pain and joy I experience will come out of it. And it will be ment to convey or express that part of us that is not of the constrictions of seperateness. If that makes any sence.
Anyway interesting thread. Tygress you must know my brother. You sound just like him. ( I love him very much by the way)
Take care
Tom
I’m very thankfull that my Highschool wasn’t one of those schools. Our school choir is a Multi gold awarded choir that has appeared in many choral adjudications and taken home the gold medal many times. The band has played in the rose bowl and many nationally televised parades. I feel honored to have graduated from a school that appreciats the importance of musical education for the students that want it. Choir and band were electives, not regular courses. I wasn’t in bad. I was in choir, sang tennor 1 for 3 years in concert choir and “Camerata” audition only vocal group. I wasn’t realy a tenor 1 but it was in my singing range and since that Male vocal is few and far between in High School choirs I was forced to sing it. I would considder myself a barritone with a very broud range. I don’t sing much anymore, my fiance doesn’t like when I do. Because I have a pure voice, I don’t have that gruffy heroin addict cigarette smoking rock star voice that she loves.
Not my business I know, but I’ve been married 25 years and seen a thing or two - when I was younger I wouldn’t have thought twice about that statement but knowing what I do now I have to caution you that I’d take a long, long, loooonnnnggg, haaarddd look at such a relationship before walking the isle.
If you find yourself frequently doing (or refraining from) things that you normally wouldn’t just to please the other partner, and your partner isn’t doing the same for you – I can almost guarantee that you are setting yourself up for a pretty miserable life.
Of course, only you can answer those questions, perhaps your partner is sacrificing as much for you as you are for her. But, if not, think twice before entangling yourself…
FWIW,
John
Well, I can’t say that I am totally traditional in anything I do. I’m also not a very good player, as I don’t really practice my instruments, but just noodle around with them. That said, I think the ready availability of pre-recorded music has had a negative effect on amateur music.
I don’t know about the Irish being joyous, just as I don’t know about the folks who lived in Appalachia being joyous. Both have distinct musical cultures and both had a lot of poverty at one time.
I do think that people get used to instant gratification and will listen to recorded music rather than make their own in most cases. Part of this is that they never really learned that fun doesn’t have to come in a box. They grew up thinking that the only way to personal enjoyment was to buy something, especially if it was advertised on TV. There are some amazing piles of plastic junk that passes itself off as toys in almost every kid’s room in the US. Are these kids really having any more fun than if they went out and played Tag or Hide and Seek? I don’t think so. I think less, actually.
When music is participatory, we develop a sense of community and kinship with the other players. This isn’t deep and profound, it is like saying that when kids play with other kids, they develop a sense of friendship with the other kids. It is just what happens when people in general work together for a common goal. When you plug in a CD, you are listening to a sterile recording of someone else’s efforts, but you are not doing something active. It is passive entertainment.
Even the audience at a live concert is participating to a degree. Folks like Pete Seeger work to get the audience involved in the songs. The result is that people enjoy themselves more than if they just sat there and admired how well this old man can still play a banjo. If nothing else, having the band members talk to you about their music makes it more memorable. Getting to see Battlefield Band was a treat and part of it was hearing the stories behind several of the songs. So, it is still participatory, to a degree. Hearing a recording is never being part of the music.
I still think that it would be great if every kid had some informal musical experience. A tinwhistle or a lap harp could introduce kids to the idea that music can come from them, not just from a box. And if the whole family can play together, or at least sing a few songs together now and then, the family will be closer.
I guess it isn’t just music, but doing things together has become a rare thing nowadays. That’s what I lament.
-Patrick
That last post reminded me of something I read about kids and their behavior. Talking about some of the reasons kids get into drugs and such risky behavior, and amoung the most frequent reasons these kids gave was “I was bored”. When parents were told that “being bored” was amoung the reasons the kids gave, they were surprised and talked of “how can the kids be bored when they have all these toys and movies, and the sports center here, the pool and and the skate park there, etc. We bought all these things for them and the community put efforts into building all these places geared towards them to keep them occupied with good things, to keep them from being bored. How can they possibly be bored?!?!”
The article went on to talk about how our society has become flooded with the idea of instant self gratification and that life is supposed to be consistantly “exciting”… the fast pace of games and TV and all these activities flashing all the time. Even the commercials show how “exciting” this toy or that car is… like somehow life will be more exciting if they have this or do that, and the advertisers count on that and emphasise it because it works. There are so many kids who grow up with being used to being entertained by others, by “things”, having absorbed the mistaken message sent by advertisers and TV and movies and even others around them that life is supposed to be exciting all the time, and when those “things” become everday and ordinary, when someone isn’t there anymore spoon feeding them entertainment, they don’t know how to cope or what to do when faced with entertaining themselves. They can’t stand the silence and peace of their own mind, are at a loss to come up with something good to do by themselves, and become very easily “bored”. (Hope I explained that in a way that remotely makes sense, it’s been a while since I read this, they explained it heaps better.)
All these “things” can be fun, but nothing can replace time spent as a family doing something that doesn’t involve the TV. Reading books, going to the park, making something, enjoying the natural beauty of the world, talking about the day or whatever. Letting kids get out and play, giving them a chance to use their imagination instead of letting the video games and TV imagine for them. Give them a whistle. Encourage their talents and their creativity. Then when things get a little slow, they will know how to occupy themselves by more healthy means. At least it would help some I think.
I am so grateful that I grew up where I did. Lived eleven years on a farm where money was tight and spent my younger childhood time running through fields, catching butterflies, exploring the garden, digging and playing in the sandbox, watching the clouds and their shapes, singing, admiring the sunsets, and just using my imagination. I made things up, I painted and made things with clay and paper and crayons and boxes and rocks and had a wonderful time. My friends came over and we carved pumkins and made dolls with flowers and toothpicks. I didn’t have a collection of movies, or nintendo or a ton of the latest fancy toys or CD’s of music. I didn’t go to one outside of the home activity after another after another. I learned to entertain myself at a young age, and learned that life doesn’t always have to be exciting.
Today I very very rarely get “bored”. There is always something to be occupied with, even if you are stuck somewhere waiting and just end up watching people walk by, or in a car and watching how the light reflects and shines and changes, how the clouds are moving, the beauty of the mountains or a tree, looking at the other cars as they go by and the people in them, and thinking of them and where they might be going and on and on.
Yes, I’m very easily entertained, and I consider it a blessing. Not that all the modern things that entertain us are bad, they can be nice, but can be overdone if we become dependent on them as some do. People get so focused on “things” and so busy with fast paced lives that we become isolated and forget about others, too often not even knowing who our neighbors are, not really knowing our own family even. When the power goes off and others are lamenting the loss of their nintendo or computer or CD player or missing the movie or football game on TV and are just miserable because of it… I’ll pull out my whistle, and me and my family will be having a wonderful candle lit evening together full of music and stories and all sorts of things that use the mind and stir the soul and we’ll not be bored in the least.
Anyhooo…
Sara
I can tell you, having grown up in Appalachia, learning old time from old timers who had the tunes and the style handed down to them prior to recorded music being available- our music was VERY joyus. I can’t remember a sad tune being played sadly- they were all played upbeat in my neck of the woods.