Beware YouTube "Tutorials"

[TxWhistler]

@Katharine

Really, it depends on one’s goals. If one learns incorrectly from these people and goes to a session, it’s not going to end well.

Now this is the heart of the matter – goals!
The original poster (bigsciota) used an extremely wide brush to paint his point. Had he narrowed it down to “if your goal is to learn traditional Irish music and play it the traditional way then beware of some of the youtube tutors” then I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him.

Now let’s get to the heart of the matter that you mentioned – goals. Not everyone who wants to learn the whistle is planning on playing in sessions. The youtube tutor that I’ve been watching had 40,000 subscribers as of two months ago. Today the number is just short of 45,000! I am one of those new (almost 5,000) subscribers because I wanted to learn to play the whistle. I do not have any desire to play in sessions and I dare say that 10’s of thousands of the subscribers don’t either. Therefore, I do not need to beware of this tutor and neither do thousands of other folks like me. This tutor has accomplished my original goal - to learn how to play the whistle (not to learn to play it traditionally but to play it). Judging from the growing numbers of this tutor’s subscriber base there are a large number of people just like me.

I know my capabilities and lack thereof! IF I were to change my goals to beyond what this tutor can offer then I would look for other sources of knowledge. As mentioned above, most likely an in person tutor would be most beneficial. But for now this person provides me with all I need to know to accomplish my goal (not your goal). East Texas is not a hotbed for Irish Traditional Music but then I don’t care because all I want to do is to play songs that I care about in a way that they are recognizable to my family and friends.

I don’t claim to know about the other tutors that are on youtube. I only know about this one that I’m using and they do not claim to be musically trained and they do not claim to be a great player. They also state that they are poor at the faster songs and prefer the slower ones.
So if there are some people out there claiming to teach the Irish traditional way and are not then I understand the concern. But the original post painted too wide a swath and it included someone when they shouldn’t have been included.

Paint with a narrower brush and I will be able to say I agree.

[TxWhistler]

@Alaskamike

@Katharine

Really, it depends on one’s goals. If one learns incorrectly from these people and goes to a session, it’s not going to end well.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. If you’re at all serious about becoming a musician the internet is probably not the best way to learn (I understand that there are some good programs, but as someone who earned a college degree online, I believe that in person is always the preferred method). My goal with playing the tin whistle is to get to a point where my family doesn’t protest before I even start playing, so I enjoy learning the traditional songs as well as songs my family might recognize. This week I’ve been working on “the Lilting Banshee” and “Concerning Hobbits” - easy version.

Alaskamike, your goals sound very similar to mine!!!

[bigsciota]

@Peter Duggan

It’s fundamentally the same thing.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to here, Peter.

@AlaskaMike

If you’re at all serious about becoming a musician the internet is probably not the best way to learn (I understand that there are some good programs, but as someone who earned a college degree online, I believe that in person is always the preferred method).

In-person is obviously better, but the internet is really a fantastic place to learn. A video walkthrough is much better IMO than the book and tape tutorials of years past, and there are more resources (many of the them free) at your disposal than ever before. People who would never have ever seen or heard a tin whistle in their area are now able to get one and learn to play it all through the internet. It’s great!

That goes a bit to my problem with the XKCD cartoon above; most beginners today are going to look to the internet to learn rather than signing up for lessons at their local Comhaltas or music school (if they even have one nearby). The joke in the comic only works if you see someone being “wrong on the internet” as a trivial matter. When that panel was drawn 12 years ago the internet and social media was still viewed by many as a sideshow, not part of “real life.” That is very much not the case now in just about every aspect of society, including in music.

The point of my post was not to demean all YouTube tutorials, as there are some wonderful ones up there. It’s more that if you search “beginner tin whistle” or “tin whistle tutorial,” you’re going to get some results that are great and some that are terrible. A beginner is going to have a hard time sorting through which is which on their own, so it’s worth helping guide them towards the right resources. And making sure that they have a healthy sense of skepticism about, as other posters have pointed out, what the ultimate goal of the person making the video is (ie teaching music or selling something?) will help them make better choices about which resources they use.

@TxWhistler

Had he narrowed it down to “if your goal is to learn traditional Irish music and play it the traditional way then beware of some of the youtube tutors” then I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him.

This is exactly what I did say:

If you’re looking for tutorial materials for Irish trad or tin whistle playing in general, please be critical about what you turn to. Listen to the “teacher” playing, and compare them to well-known whistle players. They don’t have to all be at the level of Mary Bergin, but it’ll help determine if this person is really in a position to be teaching. If they’re teaching a tune, listen to other versions of that tune to make sure that their version lines up. Also, if you’re looking to specifically learn a style like Irish trad, be sure that the person actually plays in that style and has a good grasp of the unique techniques, repertoire, and sound of that genre.

I can’t see how that is objectionable. It’s honestly obvious enough advice that it seems silly to even mention it, as a few other posters have noted. But then I see view counts and the “recommended videos” YouTube suggests and realize that apparently not enough people are taking that advice.

@TxWihstler

But the original post painted too wide a swath and it included someone when they shouldn’t have been included.

I didn’t mention a single name in my original post, and honestly wasn’t even thinking of the person you seem to be talking about when I originally posted. I also went out of my way to say that there are a lot of great resources on YouTube. The second sentence was “[t]his is not a warning against YouTube or against tutorial videos in general.” I think you may have read something into it that isn’t there.

[JTU]

Interesting discussion. My two bobs worth - I needed the internet for the basics as I have no access to ITM players and sessions. Instruction books are OK but limited in improving a Beginners playing. I wish I had taken heed sooner of the advice of Mr Gumby and others to pick a talented ITM recording artist or two and listen, listen again and then listen properly.
Cheers

[kenny]

Are we referring to the person who gives all of these "tips"on how to play the tin-whistle without actually ever playing a whole tune through from start to finish ?

[Peter_Duggan]

@bigsciota

@Peter Duggan

It’s fundamentally the same thing.

I’m not sure what you’re referring to here, Peter.

I’d already said:

@Peter Duggan

You might as well say ‘beware the Internet’!

DrPhill posted the cartoon.

You said:

@bigsciota

That is, however, a much broader topic that isn’t really worth going into here.

I’m saying it’s not really a much broader topic because you might as well say ‘beware the Internet’ as ‘beware YouTube tutorials’.

[bigsciota]

@Peter Duggan

@bigsciota

That is, however, a much broader topic that isn’t really worth going into here.

I’m saying it’s not really a much broader topic because you might as well say ‘beware the Internet’ as ‘beware YouTube tutorials’.

Ah, gotcha. I wasn’t clear in that post. I meant that my problems with that cartoon are a much broader topic that isn’t worth getting into (and wouldn’t be allowed under forum rules as it gets into politics), not that the cartoon topic itself is a much broader topic. I should have made that more clear.

[Peter_Duggan]

OK, I did wonder, but interpreted one way. Sorry!

[Sedi]

@kenny

Are we referring to the person who gives all of these "tips"on how to play the tin-whistle without actually ever playing a whole tune through from start to finish ?

Exactly.

[Tunborough]

@TxWhistler

they do not claim to be musically trained and they do not claim to be a great player. They also state that they are poor at the faster songs and prefer the slower ones.

So, um, not musically qualified, not qualified to play well, possibly no educational qualifications, … What then qualifies them to teach tin whistle? I think that’s the original point: when looking to learn from someone, check that they have a background that qualifies them to teach you, not lead you down some dead end. The ability to get attention does not automatically qualify someone.

[bigsciota]

@Tunborough

So, um, not musically qualified, not qualified to play well, possibly no educational qualifications, … What then qualifies them to teach tin whistle? I think that’s the original point: when looking to learn from someone, check that they have a background that qualifies them to teach you, not lead you down some dead end. The ability to get attention does not automatically qualify someone.

As I mentioned before, at least they’re fairly honest about their ability or lack thereof. Some aren’t even that forthcoming. But I certainly wouldn’t continue watching a video after a disclaimer like that if I wanted to actually learn something.

[ecadre]

When I read “bigsciota”'s OP, experience inclined me to sympathy. Then I realised which video he was referring to, and I understood his need to have a little rant. Did it make any difference? I don’t know. I hope it made “bigscotia” feel better and it at least raised a debate.

Simply put, the self-appointed teacher has no real idea of the time signature (9/8), phrases the tune awkwardly across the rhythm and adds bits (mostly pauses) that further screw the rhythm. He basically seems to be someone who learnt the tune for some sort of tab, can play the notes clearly, but also clearly has no idea of how the tune works.

Unkind? Not really. He’s not just some person who stuck a video on Youtube, or someone who got caught by a bystander in a video. He’s setting himself up as an authority on how to play this tune. He’s telling those he considers his students what and how to play, he even plays it slowly so they can follow etc.

I had a go at playing along with his rendition (I don’t really play the tune, but I know it), and it didn’t go well. If he came along to my session, and we are a kindly lot, he’d be in for some gentle re-education.

To those who took some sort of offence (seemingly second-hand offence too). It’s not about getting you to play Irish music. No-one is trying to make you play Irish music, it’s not about you.

And it’s not about me either. I play a lot of English music on the tin whistle, as do a lot of people. This is not about trying to make everyone play Irish traditional music on the tin whistle.

Incidentally, the slip jig “Rocky Road to Dublin” is a development of an English 3/2 triple hornpipe called “The key to the cellar”, which in turn was a development of an English/Scottish border tune simply called “A hornpipe”. I say that “Key to the cellar” is English, but it was quite evidently also played in Scotland (as so many tunes are) and made its way to Ireland where it was turned into a 9/8 slip jig. That, apparently, was a common fate for many English and Scottish 3/2 tunes in Ireland.

Triple hornpipes have a kind of rolling rhythm, as do slip jigs, that kind of wraps round on itself (I’m sure there are better ways of describing this technically) and lends itself to unphrased dances (ceilidh/eceilidh/country dancing). I will often use a 3/2 hornpipe for unphrased dances.

Edited: for typos and spelling

[Peter_Duggan]

@ecadre

Simply put, the self-appointed teacher has no real idea of the time signature (9/8), phrases the tune awkwardly across the rythm and adds bits (mostly pauses) that further screw the rhythm. He’s basically seems to be someone who learnt the tune for some sort of tab, can play the notes clearly, but also clearly has no idea of how the tune works.

Have to say my curiosity finally led me to seek out this video, which there are more than enough clues in this topic to identify beyond doubt. And, yes, it’s terrible (its deficiencies compounded by the guy’s cosy familiarity and attempted Irish accent), but that’s ultimately the Internet… a great resource if you can sort the wheat from the chaff and potentially worse than nothing if you can’t!

[bigsciota]

@ecadre

When I read “bigsciota”'s OP, experience inclined me to sympathy. Then I realised which video he was referring to, and I understood his need to have a little rant. Did it make any difference? I don’t know. I hope it made “bigscotia” feel better and it at least raised a debate.

Unkind? Not really. He’s not just some person who stuck a video on Youtube, or someone who got caught by a bystander in a video. He’s setting himself up as an authority on how to play this tune. He’s telling those he considers his students what and how to play, he even plays it slowly so they can follow etc.

Exactly, and tying in Peter Duggan’s point, I just posted this to hopefully help someone separate that “wheat from the chaff.” A lot of people are just good enough that they sound knowledgeable to a complete beginner, but seem obviously unqualified to someone who knows better. If a beginner reads this hopefully they’ll be a bit more circumspect about who they end up following on YouTube. It’s not a coincidence that I worded the title similarly to the “Beware of cheap eBay flutes!” thread on the flute forum. People post pictures of flutes on eBay both to show what the typical crappy flute looks like and to ask about whether a flute in question is one of the bad ones. I felt a little weird about singling people out by posting their tutorial videos here, but I figured a general post would at least cause a bit of discussion.

@ecadre

To those who took some sort of offence (seemingly second-hand offence too). It’s not about getting you to play Irish music. No-one is trying to make you play Irish music, it’s not about you.

And it’s not about me either. I play a lot of English music on the tin whistle, as do a lot of people. This is not about trying to make everyone play Irish traditional music on the tin whistle.

Ultimately, it’s about trying to make sure that the beginner is getting good instruction, whatever they want to play. There are definitely things that I wish I had learned right away on some of the instruments I play, things that took a long time to re-learn after not quite getting it right the first time. So if this post helps a beginner be a little more discerning, I think it’s worth posting.

[pancelticpiper]

@kenny

Are we referring to the person who gives all of these "tips"on how to play the tin-whistle without actually ever playing a whole tune through from start to finish ?

That would be me!

I don’t understand that that’s a problem.

It’s like saying a video on how to install a new toilet is bad because they don’t build a house from start to finish.

There are plenty of “tune” videos, they’re great for tunes, the “tune a day” ones.

Mine are “technique” videos. I discuss and demonstrate a specific technique. If somebody wants to learn a new tune, that’s not the video for them.

[pancelticpiper]

@TxWhistler

I have zero desire to learn to play the tin whistle and play only traditional Irish tunes the traditional way. I do not want to limit myself to playing Irish tunes and nothing else.

I would say the limiting goes the reverse way.

If you do learn the traditional Irish whistle performance practices, when you go to play a non-trad-Irish tune, for example you’re playing a Hymn in church, you can choose to employ as many or as few of the traditional Irish whistle performance practices as you wish.

If you don’t learn the traditional Irish whistle performance practices, when you go to play a trad Irish tune you will not be able to choose to employ traditional Irish whistle performance practices.

I played Baroque flute in University. I played Irish flute, I played Bulgarian kaval. I played Bolivian kena. For each of those I learned the performance practices traditionally associated with those instruments.

Never was I constrained to only play a certain set of performance practices on a particular instrument. I had the ability to, but it was a matter of choice. I didn’t want not knowing to set limits on my playing.

[kenny]

I was not referring to you at all, Richard - but if the hat fits…

[pancelticpiper]

@kenny

I was not referring to you at all, Richard - but if the hat fits…

Well, yes if it does!

I just can’t understand the premise that instruction is only worthwhile if it involves playing a full tune in each sitting.

I’ve taught Highland pipes for 30-odd years and in a lesson it is rare to work on an entire tune all the way through. Instead, a particular lesson will generally focus on a particular technique, first in isolation, then in the context of a phrase, then in context of a part of a tune.

Ditto in Irish flute lessons- especially early on- when an entire lesson will be tone-building exercises, or learning rolls, or what have you.

And those were 30 or 60 minute lessons! Teaching somebody the basics of how to do rolls AND walking them through a full two-part reel in a 10 minute YouTube video is, in my opinion, impractical.

The way I teach, repertoire-building has to come after the person has acquired a certain level of control over the instrument. A person struggling with basic technique can’t do much in the way of creating music.

What about this video? The point is to demonstrate a dozen different whistles. If I played a full tune on each one we would be there all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-fQhvleWq8&t=12s

[Sedi]

I don’t think the question is whether it is needed for good instructions to play a full tune. The thing is rather – those self-procclaimed “teachers” lack the skills to even manage to play a full tune. That is the difference. And nobody doubts that you, Richard, would have those skills. I profited a lot from one of your short clips about ornamentation for example and I have zero doubts that you could play a 5 minute tune and use all those different ornaments with perfection. But some online “tutors” clearly lack the skills and only play short sequences of a tune or “edit” their videos to somehow fit together a tune from different snippets because they simply couldn’t pull it off. And if they can’t pull off to play a tune in one piece, they might not be suited to “teach” others anything at all.

[ytliek]

@bigsciota

Ultimately, it’s about trying to make sure that the beginner is getting good instruction, whatever they want to play. There are definitely things that I wish I had learned right away on some of the instruments I play, things that took a long time to re-learn after not quite getting it right the first time. So if this post helps a beginner be a little more discerning, I think it’s worth posting.

There’s a sticky thread up top of forum “Whistle Instruction” that anyone here could’ve and should’ve contributed to. I don’t claim to be any more than an advanced beginner whistler that still continues to learn and hopefully contribute. There were not very many reliable sources suggested or recommended on the sticky by most of the contributors to this particular thread. If you know of a whistle instruction resource that’s worth recommending how about adding it to the sticky?

I have always advocated for beware of YouTube whistle instruction videos (Internet) and that same beware goes for the session forum as well. These are open forums where the less knowledgeable people can also contribute. Just saying.