A recorder with a flute embouchure?

I can’t answer the wall thickness question, but the resin commonly used for 3D printing has a density of about 1.2 g/cm³. Delrin has a density right around 1.4 g/cm³, and blackwood, 1.1 g/cm³. So I’d be doubtful that 3D printing will be the answer here.

Also, for reference, I have the 8-keyed Galeon 3D printed flute, and it weighs roughly 330g, though I’d say the scale has at least a 10g margin of error. Still, that’s pretty light for an 8-key. That might be attributed more to the lightness of plastic keys than any weight savings on the main body.

It works fine in quenas - it looks to me like an alternative shape of “wedge” making it feel more familiar to players of a transverse flute.

The horizontal hold is actually an advantage when it comes to dealing with the weight. The problem with the horizontal hold is its postural asymmetry and its reach challenges that cause ever increasing problems for shoulders, neck and hands as we age and our flexibility decreases. Not everybody encounters these problems, of course, but many do.

There are many vertically blown embouchure flutes around the world, so there certainly isn’t a problem with the acoustic aspects of blowing against the returning wave. I personally play quite a few different vertically held embouchure flutes, including quena, quenacho, various kinds of kavals and neys, rim-blown Anasazi flutes, shakuhachi and dongxiao, among others. Not well, of course, but well enough to know that acoustically it works very well … with the right embouchure approach!

It is not difficult to take one of the above flute styles and change the tone hole lattice to play a diatonic major scale, like a keyless Irish flute. But when you do this, the problems you first run into are ergonomic. Specifically, you need to adapt your “grip” so that the flute doesn’t slip through your fingers and fall to the ground when you relax. You don’t get the benefit of opposing pressures at lip and various hand contact points that we utilized with horizontally held flutes. Instead, you need to maintain certain patterns of finger contact which are not immediately compatible with the finger patterns you use on a horizontally held flute, especially when playing ITM at speed.

In other words, you need to retrain your finger work, and it is not clear exactly how to do this most effectively. The other world flutes overcame this problem, of course, often thousands of years ago, but they did so with a different scale and tone hole lattice. I think we could do the same, relatively easily, but it would mean redesigning the fingering system (like piper’s do, say). The holy grail would be to be able to maintain the same fingering style so that people could easily switch back and forth between horizontally and vertically held flutes and whistles.

Of course, we already face this problem to a certain extent when playing low whistles. But it is surprising how much additional stability and control you get in practice from a whistle mouthpiece held between the lips, compared to a flute embouchure resting lightly against the lip and sensitive to the slightest movements.

Also, the weight of a vertically held flute becomes a critical factor. The heavier it is, the more you need to grip it to prevent it falling, and the more this interferes with dexterity. Making vertically held flutes lighter is a huge benefit, much more so than with horizontally held flutes.

Thousands of years ago flutes didn’t need to be chromatic. :wink:

The history of other designs sound very logical and good, until we get to the point where a fluter like me needs keys to play the music I’m interested in, including tunes in the “standard” ITM repertoire because so many are written by fiddlers. Those pesky Fnats, G sharps, and Eb’s that need to be played up to session speed.

So if you’re in that cohort of “Irish” flute players who need keys like me, I don’t see vertical options out there being practical. But this is just my personal bias. Maybe there is a market for some innovation that could make it easier if you don’t need keys.

Making a fully chromatic vertically held flute is certainly a much harder challenge, and adding keys adds considerable weight which compounds the challenge yet further.

But if there is a market for keyless whistles and keyless flutes, there is probably a market for keyless vertically held flutes too. But whether there is a market or not is a whole separate question from how to make the thing work well in the first place.

And in all honesty, I think it still remains to be seen whether there is a viable market for keyed Irish flutes. At least a market big enough to justify being called a market rather than just the pursuit of a few obsessed zealots, of which I am proud to count myself as a member. :moreevil:

By the way, my opinions on this issue are born out of a lot of recent experience testing a vertically held, embouchure flute, called the “Selkie”, made by Geoffrey Ellis. It is basically a keyless, 6-hole, design, like an Irish whistle or keyless flute, but it has a xiao mouthpiece and is held vertically. Geoffrey has one in D and one in F, both in the prototype stage. I’ve been spending some time with the F one recently and would be happy to share details (photos and sound samples) if there is interest. Although perhaps a separate thread would be appropriate to avoid hijacking this one.

I keep hearing this sentiment on here that keyless flutes are the more typical thing to play. Maybe it’s just the niche group of people I run into in sessions, but I know a lot more players with keyed flutes than ones with keyless flutes. Nearly every halfway-decent flute player I know has a keyed flute (there are one or two excellent players who only play keyless, but this seems atypical). Maybe this is just a Boston-area thing?

Also, nearly all the trad bands I listen to have flute players with keyed flutes. So they at least seem to be very popular among professionals.

Conical Bore asked “Is the main problem for seniors the horizontal hold, or the weight being held that way?”

In my case, it’s definitely the horizontal hold. The weight is no problem.

The issue is the dreaded “twist of the wrist” that makes the flute one of the less ergonomic instruments, coupled with the wide spacing of the LH finger holes.

And in particular, the wide spacing between L1 and L2. I can still play the Boehm flute, because the keywork on L1 brings the L1 touch down to near the L2 touch.

When I say the weight is no problem, it certainly wouldn’t be with a “swan neck” head. Test this theory yourself. Raise the flute horizontally to your lips, now let it droop to around 45 degrees. No difference in weight.

But hold it vertically, and yes, you would need something to take the weight and let you play the keys. The typical thumb rest from a bass recorder or clarinet would do the trick.

Again confirming that weight is not the issue. My current 6-key in blackwood weighs 348 grams.

The xiao mouthpiece is certainly interesting, Paddler, but clearly in the same general league as the Quena and Giorgi. My experience with any of these is that they do not share the efficiency of our transverse flutes. I put this down to the jet having to “battle” the returning airwave, rather than offering it something to grab and manipulate. But maybe I’m wrong? I’d be pleased to hear.

Or maybe these flutes just don’t suit my face?

You might reasonably ask hey, what about the low whistle? It’s played vertically, or at least, in line, not transversely.

I’d argue the same. I’ve not heard a low whistle that can produce anywhere as good a tone as a transverse flute. It would be fair to point out that the whistle doesn’t allow the player to modify the windway in the same way we flute players intuitively modify our windways (lips). But perhaps the test would be does it equal the flute in the middle of the range, say 2nd octave D?

I’ll start a separate thread so we can talk more about this. I have a couple of sound samples which I will include that I think address your points.

I have some thoughts on this! I’ve been following this thread, and I see that this morning paddler made a post about an experimental flute that I’ve been working on, and it might be more appropriate to share my thoughts over there. I, too, don’t want to digress from the OP, but if anyone wants to get geeky on this subject (vertical embouchure flutes versus transverse), I’ll go and blab about it on the other thread :slight_smile:

I’m with you on this one, Terry. Plus at our age (i’m in my 60s and have been playing since i’m 4) the number of wrist injuries attributable to so many different activities (my case is left-wrist dominated ice hockey and baseball) makes it difficult sometimes to even hold the flute sideways, let alone at all.

That said…I’ve no issues producing strong tone on the Giorgi flute. Mine was the spacing of the holes, particularly the C for the left palm at the index finger. But when covered, I thought the tone to be solid and without concern.

Nevertheless, creating such a headpiece for a wood 8key flute is what’s the issue.

A quena was mentioned earlier, but as I recall, they are flat to the upper lip (at the fultrum) and the lower lip tucked upward to produce the tone “from below” and the instrument held outward away from you, not downward. I think I have this accurate.

I’ve got my Giorgi headed to a maker who is willing to give it a shot and see if we can come up with something of a headpiece that will work as a replacement to any flute. We shall see. I’m hopeful, but not smart enough to tell you why. :confused: