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 Post subject: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:01 am 
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I'm going to make a PVC flute and have a question about the Flutomat numbers vs. Doug Tipple's numbers. I think I might be reading something incorrectly in one or both locations.

When I put the hole sizes that Doug Tipple uses in his article (http://tippleflutes.com/making-a-simple-irish-flute) into the flutomat (http://11wall-west.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html), I get different measurements for the distance of the hold from the bottom of the flute:

Code:
Hole   Size   Tipple   Flutomat
----   ----   ------   ---------
R3     5/16"  98mm     80.09mm
R2     7/16"  137mm    131.18mm
R1     3/8"   166mm    157.52mm
L3     5/16"  223mm    210.7mm
L2     3/8"   260mm    249.37mm
L1     3/8"   297mm    287.31mm
Emb    3/8"   525mm    563.43mm


As you can see, in some cases, the numbers are quite different. Can anyone point out what I'm missing in either Doug's article or the use of the Flutomat?

Also, I don't think either article indicates whether this is a measurement to the end of the hole or the center, but I'm assuming both are to the center of the hole.

Thanks for any help!

--Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:49 am 
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I cannot say for sure, but the flut-o-mat seemed like a starting point. I made a wonky sounding fife using it.

What I.D. are you starting with? Heck, give us all the numbers you entered. It should all be apparent, but I am currently missing the obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:27 am 
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I used the defaults for "Inside Diameter" and "Wall Thickness" (0.824 and 0.113) since I'm using standard schedule 40-3/4" PVC.


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:35 am 
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Location: where the beer is good and plenty (that be Belgium)
bejubi wrote:
I used the defaults for "Inside Diameter" and "Wall Thickness" (0.824 and 0.113) since I'm using standard schedule 40-3/4" PVC.

Are you mixing up metric and imperial ? Your lengths are in mm and your hole diameters in inches.

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Bingo! That got me closer, Lucas. If I leave everything in inches and then convert to mm after the calculations are complete, I get closer. They're still a little different--0mm to 3mm after rounding, which makes me curious--but I'm much closer:

Code:
Hole   Size   Tipple   Flutomat
----   ----   ------   ---------
R3     5/16"  98mm     94.8436mm
R2     7/16"  137mm    140.132mm
R1     3/8"   166mm    165.1mm
L3     5/16"  223mm    226.416mm
L2     3/8"   260mm    257.378mm
L1     3/8"   297mm    297.307mm
Emb    3/8"   525mm    526.542mm


Thanks for the help, Lucas... I figured I was just missing something silly like that.

--Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:07 pm 
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If it makes you feel any better, I did the EXACT same thing when I first started making PVC flutes!

Pat

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Flut-o-Mat?

You're kidding, right?

I mean .... Flute - OH- MATT?

Where's the quarter go?

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:42 pm 
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I have been away from C & F for awhile. Flutomat is an online calculator for calculating the position of tone holes on cylindrical-bore flutes. I use it as a good starting point, and I recommend it to others. However, the finger hole position measurements that I give on my online page about making a simple pvc flute I wrote about ten years ago, and I was not using Flutomat at the time. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people, have made satisfactory flutes from these measurements, although I must admit that my current measurements are slightly different from the ones given on my webpage. Anyway, to bring this up to the present time, I received this feedback today from a customer in California who just received one of my 3-piece, 6-hole low D flutes with the standard headjoint without the lip plate. I am always happy to learn that someone appreciates my flutes.

"Hello Doug,

The flute arrived today. Thanks to your expert packaging the flute was in pristine condition.

Thank you for including an advice sheet, the cleaning cloth on a flexible metal rod, and a nice carrying case for the flute.

This black 3 piece 6 hole low D Tipple flute has a lovely, professional appearance that belies its humble PVC origins. It's a fine piece to behold with its superb workmanship. The details of fit and finish are quite evident with the polished body, the silver rings, and the carefully cut tone holes and embouchure hole. Outstanding work, Doug!

It only took a few minutes to accommodate my fingering to the offset holes. I was used to inline holes, but now I never want to go back to them. The ergonomic aspect of the offset holes means I can play faster and more assuredly without having to stretch so much.

The tone just sings out and allows me to play longer phrases than I ever could on my maple xxxxxxxxxx flute.

Thank you so much for making such a wonderful flute at a reasonable price for impecunious musicians!

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:38 pm 
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:thumbsup: Doug.

I would also second all of the above, with the addition of all of us penurious musicians as well :D

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Hiya...

There's one thing I've seen asked, but no answered, though I could (and probably am) missing the obvious posting...

Between the comments, observations, and conclusions of Doug Tipple (great web site Doug), and the use of the flutomat.... and my definite need of another flute... I have one question.... at the moment.

Are the flutomat number from the end of the flute to the bottom edge of the tone hole, or from the end of the flute, to the center of the tone hole ?

I'm almost ready to start drilling, but have this one last question....

Thanks in advance,
Walt


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Location: Clayville, RI
Center.

I've had best results with schedule 80 3/4" PVC pipe. Since it comes in 10' lengths why not make 4 and see which one works best for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Location: Stout's Valley, PA, USA
WaltHansen wrote:
Are the flutomat number from the end of the flute to the bottom edge of the tone hole, or from the end of the flute, to the center of the tone hole ?
Distance is to hole center.

Strike a centerline in pencil along the pipe (unless you are going all ergonomic). Measure from end to each hole center along the line. Use and awl or other center punch to mark the spot. Clamp the pipe securely to drill. Drill on the spot. Deburr and dress each hole. And most importantly, have fun!

Feadoggie

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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:44 pm 
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I have just bought a B flute from Doug and concur with all the sentiments expressed by Doug's recent D buyer. I can't get over how much the low sheen black PVC that Doug uses looks like blackwood. Its a very smart loking instrument as well as a fine player.


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:28 am 
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I have had pretty good luck by starting with holes about 2/3 the calculated diameter. I gradually enlarge holes, starting with right ring finger until the tuner says the pitch is correct in the low octave. Alas, the overblown notes are flat. You can raise the pitch by blowing louder, but that is the opposite of what flute players want to do with high notes. You can raise the pitch in the second octave by pushing the cork closer to the emboucher hole, but, contrary to published teachings, I have never been able to push it in far enough without interfering with the inside of the emboucher hole. I roll the cork in liquid paraffin wax before inserting it; this helps it slide and provides some moisture resistance.

You can't win. I am experimenting with a reduced diameter emboucher area. It has been known for hundreds of years that this will correct flattening of the high notes. We shall see.

I started this about two years ago with a piccolo in d for a 4th of July parade in a bad neighborhood where I did not want to take my silver piccolo. It worked so well that I seldom get the silver picc out! Also, a d picc works well in e dorian in blues clubs. In the high notes it is loud enough to not need a mike and amplifier.

I am now working on a D flute. I have the tone hole and the pipe cut with the cork, and it produces a rich woody tone at the low end, just like my silver Yamaha.


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 Post subject: Re: Tipple vs. Flutomat
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Hello folks,

I have been away from C&F for awhile, spending my time at another site whose name I will not mention, slap me in the face.

Here is a suggestion that I mention on my website. Let me praise the wonders of masking tape; I use it for everything. When laying out the position of the finger holes on a flute, I stretch a piece of masking tape along the length of the flute. I draw a straight line with a meter stick and layout the holes on the tape. I remove the tape after I have drilled the holes, and there are no marks on the flute body that I have to remove. The tape method is especially useful for laying out the holes on a black pipe, where it is hard to see the marks otherwise.

With regard to the flutomat numbers for drilling the finger holes, I have used the exact flutomat numbers with good success for several years now. I just received a feedback note today from an accomplished musician who ordered three of my flutes and was very pleased with the tuning of the flutes.

I enter all of the flutomat numbers in inches and convert the results to millimeters after I receive the results from flutomat. I find it easier to layout the holes using millimeters instead of inches. However, I do make some adjustments to the numbers that I enter into flutomat. If I drill a hole that is 3/8", instead of using .375 inches, which is an exact equivalent, I use .381, which is an average of the hole diameter after I have finished the hole with files after I drill it. This process gives a little more accuracy to the flutomat numbers.

Best wishes and happy fluting.

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