It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:44 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 1:07 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Manchester Lancashire
Not tying to stir anything here, so please don't post links to commercial sites.

I had a quick look at the search results for Pakistani UPs and thought it would be a good idea for people with experience of these instruments to make comments on one thread so that the rest of us could learn more.

All the best

John S


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 am
Posts: 2149
Location: Skerries, County Dublin
I would direct everyone to the article entitled "Reworking Pakistani Pipes" in the most recent (Autumn 2005) edition of The Pipers' Review/Iris na bPiobairi, in which Doug Dexter describes in detail his experiences in making one of these sets into something relatively playable. Lots of specific info in there. His experience indicates that one of these sets (at least, the one he obtained) could not be made into a working set without large-scale modification (reboring, moving toneholes, chopping sections of timber, etc. - i.e. all the things we're not supposed to do with other makers' sets ;-) ). He also discarded bag, bellows, and reeds, and resoldered keys IIRC. Anyone thinking of purchasing such a set would be IMO well advised to read this article first.

Reprints of the Pipers' Review are available from the Seattle Pipers' Club
http://www.irishpipersclub.org/ (reprint contact info is available at that site)

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:40 pm
Posts: 13780
Location: ... who cares?...
Thanks John S. and Billh!

This post is worth a "stickie" IMHO, and I will make it so.

I would like to point out that not all Pakistani made UPs are unplayable, but the experience of most makers and pipers would concur that it is better to spend your money on a set who's maker is available for comment, reeds, advice and repair.

I would like to solicit observations from experienced makers and pipers about Pakistani made UPs.

I am also going to ask permission from Wally Charm, editor of The Piper's Review to reprint the above mentioned article within this topic.

Please, stick to well thought out, substantiated and verifiable responses about these instruments only.


Thanks.


JES

===============================================


Here is the article on reworking Pakistani UPs from The Piper's Review, by Doug Dexter and edited by Wally Charm. Reprinted here by their kind permission. To all you people who are new to Uilleann Piping, read this and I hope you learn something. :D


-JES.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Reworking Pakistani Pipes
By Doug Dexter

Doug Dexter specializes in restoring 5 string banjos of the pre-1900 period (1840s to 1900) for museums and collectors. They do fretboard replacements, inlays, broken necks and will reproduce missing metal parts from scratch if necessary. When you consider that a vintage 5 string banjo can easily have over 150 parts, a set of uilleann pipes doesn’t seem like a big job.
You have seen these sets on the Internet and in some music stores. They don’t look half bad and they are certainly priced affordably. But are they really a good deal or might you be about to buy a lap full of disappointment. We are talking about the sets of uilleann pipes made in Pakistan. They can be purchased as practice sets, half sets and full sets. The practice sets usually come with the drone stock cup already installed in the bag, so it is easy to add the drones and regulators later.
The Prices:
The prices vary a little on where you buy your set and how many pieces you buy at one time. The practice sets are under $500.00 The Drones are about $400.00. The regulators are $800.00. You can purchase a full set for about $1500.00.
The question I hear you asking is: do they work and if not, what does it take to get them working and can those improvements be made by the average beginning player?
The answer comes in 3 sections: The Practice Set, The Drones and finally The Regulators.
The Practice Set–Bag:
If you get a grey plastic bag with your set, save the stocks and burn the bag. Even for an experienced player this stiff material is annoying. Some of the later sets come with a softer, more pliable Naugahide, and are at least worth trying. We changed to leather McHarg bag (about $100.00). The chanter stock on the original bag was too small for the new bag and we had to machine up a larger stock to fit. Once all the stocks were tied in, that part of the experiment was over.
The Practice Set–Bellows:
The previous comments on the bag material also apply to the bellows that came with this set. The paddles were very small and required a lot of pumping. This is not a great way for a beginner, or anyone, to start. We acquired a very nice set of bellows from Seth Hamon (Hamonbagpipes) in Joshua, TX for $100.00 that does the job. We only needed to add a simple valve protector made from a piece of conduit with a washer soldered to the top to keep shirtsleeves from plugging the inlet.
Reasonably priced bellows and bellows kits are also available from C. J. Dixon at www.CJDixon.com starting at around $125.00 for the kit.
I also like brass hose connectors for attaching the blowpipe to the bellows. These are hardware store items. We machine the hose ends to fit the bellows outlet and the blowpipe tube. It makes a nice setup and allows us to use any of our bellows with any of our sets of pipes. You also don’t have to worry about it blowing out on you in the middle of a tune. One other little modification we add is a pearl dot inlay on the top of the blowpipe. One quick look tells you if the valve is upright.
The Practice Set–Chanter:
It took more work to get the chanter working properly than any other part of the set.
You will need some accurate drawings of a properly made chanter to proceed. I recommend the full sized drawings done by Alan Ginsberg or the ½ scale drawings in the Wilbert Garvin book.
First you will need to discard the plastic reed that comes with the set and either purchase or make a good cane reed. I started with a reed from Brian Howard that gave a good base line for the necessary changes that had to be made to the chanter.
You will notice immediately that most of the sound holes in the chanter are much too small to work properly. Most of them were around 3/16” when they needed to be ¼” to 5/16” in size. The length of the throat was also about 3/16” longer than shown on the plans. Cutting about 3/16” off the reed staple brought the end of the reed to the correct distance from the back D hole. Once I got bottom D and back D working, I started enlarging the holes from the bottom up by 1/64” at a time until the notes came close to true. This also gave me a chance to get the holes somewhat back in line as they originally snaked down the chanter in a somewhat random pattern.
I left the back D hole unfinished for the photo to show how much we had to move it over (about 3/16”) to get it in proper alignment with the front holes. This was done by filling with an ebony plug and redrilling. The bore seemed to be fairly accurate because the notes actually came in very close to true. But, the bore was a bit rough inside so a tapered stick with # 400 sandpaper was used to clean it up a bit. The reed has not been touched except for the aforementioned shortening. The set plays nicely but a bit quiet for some tastes. Opening the reed could increase the volume some, but it is quite nice to play as is. The chanter has 3 keys that are nicely made and fitted, and work well.
As we thought more about the size of the holes in the chanter and added our experience with the drones it seemed reasonable to assume that the plans for a D and B set had gotten crossed. Yes, the drones that we got with the set were made to B specs. So, the smaller chanter holes made more sense even though the chanter was made to the correct length for a D set. It does make you wonder what they smoke over there in Pakistan.
You will also find that these sets leak air at every joint. Besides extra thread wrapping, try some special joint sauce made as follows: Melt some beeswax and add an equal amount of neat’s-foot oil for a 50/50 mix. When it cools you have a great joint seal that won’t stick.
If you haven’t already decided to throw up your hands in surrender, then continue to the next sections on the drones and regulators.
The Drones:
Our Pakistani Pipes Project continues with the addition of the drones. They are currently available as a complete set from $300.00 to $400.00. This includes the stock and shut off valve, tenor, baritone and bass drones, and the fitted extension for the base regulator. The stock is drilled for the tenor and baritone regs with removable wood plugs to stop the holes. They come with cane reeds that had all sorts of problems. When we first set up and tried the drones, we had difficulty trying to get them to tune up. The tenor and baritone would not go higher than a C# with the slides fully closed and the reed tongues shortened as much as possible before they quit playing. The mystery was soon solved when I compared them with the drones on my Gallagher B set. Yes, these drones were made to B drone specs. With a bit of work the bass drone could be brought up to a D. The tenor and baritone needed a major rework. First they had to be shortened by trimming back the ends of the slide tubes and shortening the inner tube by the same amount. You can see about how much was trimmed by looking at the tube above. All of the ungrooved part was trimmed off both ends. Then the bores were gradually increased until they would tune in to a proper D with the slides at a near midpoint. To eliminate other possible variables a set of Childress brass reeds was used. At $80.00 for the set plus shipping, this was the only added expense on the drones. These reeds are well worth the money. Once played in, they start up and tune up every time regardless of temperature, humidity or time since last played. Trying to tune up these drones as they came out of the box would have greatly added to the frustration of a beginning player.
The Regulators:
These come made to fit the stock holes and extension tube of the drone set. The regulators run about $800.00, and just about doubles the price of the complete set. The regs come with double plastic reeds that, so far in our experience, are a waste of time. Bruce Childress has developed a set of regulator reeds that we wanted to try. They are made like a traditional cane double reed but plastic is substituted for the cane then bound and bridled with wire. Like Bruce’s drone reeds, so far they are trouble free.
The main problem with the regulators is trying to get them tuned as they come out of the box. The holes are properly placed but no amount of moving the reed could get them out of a state of critical flatness. The problem is shown in the photos. The tuning rushes, which should be made of fine wire, were actually made of pieces of large, square, wood sticks. The .096 tuning pins, which should end before the bottom hole, were extended up to the third hole from the bottom. A pin of that thickness under a sound hole is enough to flatten it all by itself. The wood sticks were bound to the tuning pins. The photo showing one of the tuning rushes from my Gallagher D set with 2 taken from the Pakistani regs. The tuning pins were cut off just before they reached the bottom hole and were center drilled so a piece of .032 brass wire could be inserted and soldered in place. This allows us to pull the entire pin and rush out for work or seal replacement. The wire extends to just above the top hole so when the tuning pin is pulled out a short distance the top hole can have unrestricted air flow if it needs to be sharpened any. Wrapping Teflon tape around the fine wire to effectively narrow the bore near a hole that needs to be flattened does the actual tuning. The entire, lengthy, tuning process could be covered in another article. The only other problem with the regs is the attachment of the sound hole pads to the key shafts. A couple of them were loose and needed to be resoldered. The solder is the problem. They should have been silver soldered or brazed.
That completes the major work on our Pakistani Pipe Project and we now have a nice playing set of uilleann pipes. Visually they have a very nice basic, antique look. I found the large regulator keys easy to use even for someone of very marginal talent. The chanter requires alternative fingering for C natural (both the G and F# fingers raised). The notes otherwise are normal in both octaves.
Some Pakistani pipes may not require all of the work needed to make them playable, but hopefully, you will have some insight into what to look for if you are considering the purchase of a practice, half or full set of these pipes.
The question still remains: Are they a good deal? Certainly not if you have to pay a professional pipemaker (assuming you could find one with the time) to do the work described here. That might double the price of the set. Unfortunately, most of these sets are being sold to beginning pipers. All they will get for their money is frustration and discouragement and an eventual resolve never to pick up a set of uilleann pipes again. However, as a do–it–yourself uilleann pipe kit, they might be just the answer. By the time you get them playing, you will certainly have a much better understanding of maintenance, tuning, reed making and uilleann pipes in general.
I would be happy to answer any questions and give more details on the work involved in this project. hometoireland@aol.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an after thought here, I'd like to point out that The Piper's Review is published quarterly by the Seattle Piper's Club, and IMHO is quite a valuable resource for all Uilleann Pipers. I highly recommend it.

For questions about this publication, back issues, subscriptions and what-have-you, you can contact Wally Charm at: charm@seanet.com


Thanks,


JES

_________________
Image


Last edited by Joseph E. Smith on Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Pakistani Pipes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:50 am
Posts: 4290
Location: Larkhall Scotland
Hi Billh

I am in the opposite camp to most people in this forum - I quite like pakistani chanters - I have 4 if you include the mouth blown practice chanter and my Dixonised one. I also have a full set getting the treatment by my local pipemaker. The problems I found with them were reed related - if you got the reed right they played acceptably

While working on the drones of that set said the he thought that they were C# drones (he got them playing in C, C# and D while I was there).

The one that I play - a similar chanter to the one that JES has, was playing in D with a plastic reed, when I pulled the reed apart taking it out to lend to someone to try in their chanter. Uilliam rebuilt the reed and tweaked it and when we got the chanter playing in tune with itself it was playing about 4 cents sharp of C# (result). This tends to back up what Jim was saying about the drones.

As a pipemaker can you say what you would need to do to convert a C# set to concert D and would that be the same as what Doug Dexter did?

David

_________________
Payday, Piping, Percussion and Poetry- the 4 best Ps


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Pakistani Pipes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:15 am
Posts: 2149
Location: Skerries, County Dublin
BigDavy wrote:
Hi Billh

I am in the opposite camp to most people in this forum - I quite like pakistani chanters - I have 4 if you include the mouth blown practice chanter and my Dixonised one. I also have a full set getting the treatment by my local pipemaker. The problems I found with them were reed related - if you got the reed right they played acceptably

Hi Davy:

Hmm, you say you like them, but so far it sounds as if all have required substantial rework in order to play in concert pitch. I would discount the mouthblown one, and by 'Dixonized' I am assuming a rebore was done. This to my mind seems to support the notion that they do not play properly (in concert D) as-is, even with different reeds (which are required in any case).

I should point out that I have NOT had personal experience with any of the Pakistani uilleann pipes on the market, so my comments are based on reports of other peoples' experience.

Quote:

While working on the drones of that set said the he thought that they were C# drones (he got them playing in C, C# and D while I was there).

The one that I play - a similar chanter to the one that JES has, was playing in D with a plastic reed, when I pulled the reed apart taking it out to lend to someone to try in their chanter. Uilliam rebuilt the reed and tweaked it and when we got the chanter playing in tune with itself it was playing about 4 cents sharp of C# (result). This tends to back up what Jim was saying about the drones.

As a pipemaker can you say what you would need to do to convert a C# set to concert D and would that be the same as what Doug Dexter did?

David


Doug D, while an instrument builder, isn't a maker of UP, so he was at a disadvantage. He was also comparing to plans which other folks have reported problems with, so some of his assumptions about dimensions may not have a firm base either. In his own case, he concluded that the drones were actually based on a B set (!) rather than a D set.

I would say that one should not attempt to convert a working C# set to concert D, it is a basically ill-conceived notion. I do not think that the Pakistani sets are properly C# either, it sounds like there may be massive quality control/consistency issues at work which result in individual instruments (or parts thereof) playing flat.

In any case it sounds as though making such a set work is a matter either of great luck, or involves remanufacturing most of the set, i.e. replacing the bores. This is dependent on things being too small in bore diameter and/or too long in length, to make it possible to create a working concert D bore inside the 'shell' of the original timber. That is my understanding of how all of the Pakistani-remanufacturing efforts work - you take the external set and re-bore with new tools, shortening a few other pieces in the process. It all seems rather similar to making a set from scratch, and given the iffy nature of the result I wonder if it's worth the savings in cost or labor at all.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 337
Location: twin cities
If you look at Pakistani work as a kit that you put the finishing touches to, you can use them. But if you are a beginning piper of any kind, you're asking for trouble buying blind.

A lot of work is done in Pakistan on pipes sold by Scottish and other manufacturers. Parts are sent from these shops to be finish and stamped and sold as non-Pakistan manufactured. What happens is the Pakistanis take the specs sent to them and knock off their own copies. Essential details are kept from them such as chanter hole placement etc. so they don't get it quite right. Inferior leather and wood is also a problem.

Some fine work has come from Pakistan in the past. They can be fine craftsmen. It's these sweatshop knock-offs that are the problem.

_________________
Baglady
Put the music under thier feet and lift them to the dance.
Oh, and,
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." --Martin Carthy


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 5:47 am
Posts: 17853
Location: Canadia
BigDavy wrote:
The one that I play - a similar chanter to the one that JES has, was playing in D with a plastic reed, when I pulled the reed apart taking it out to lend to someone to try in their chanter. Uilliam rebuilt the reed and tweaked it and when we got the chanter playing in tune with itself it was playing about 4 cents sharp of C# (result). This tends to back up what Jim was saying about the drones.

Dave, consider the isolated piper who does not have access to an experienced uilleann piper, nor have a local pipemaker within a few hundred miles of them. Such a beginner purchasing a set of Pakistani manufacture, not knowing any better and thinking it was cost-justified, would be up a particular creek. I think this is the basis for the many warnings. It cannot cover everybody's particular circumstances, such as yours, but should be considered as a general level warning to new purchasers.

djm

_________________
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 1978
OK


Last edited by Jim McGuire on Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:00 pm
Posts: 364
Jim McGuire wrote:
Super idea for this, Joseph!

Run the other way and fast - if you see a Pakistani set. They are rubbish! No connection to the Irish tradition whatsover. No service, no sounds, no reeds worth a damn, nothing for someone who wants to play the Irish pipes. An operation just sucking out dollars from unknowing folks.

If you are outfitting an Irish-theme bar and are looking for a knock-off, unauthentic, virtually theft-proof (you should mark them MADE IN PAKISTAN) but Irish pipe-evocative from a distance piece for hanging on the wall, Pakistani pipes would fit the bill.


I think you missed the point of the thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:55 pm
Posts: 221
Location: America's Dairyland
I don't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 1978
ok


Last edited by Jim McGuire on Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 936
Location: Finland,Oulu-city200km south from articcirclr
Who want to buy a sailboat with hundreds of leaks.....


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:58 pm
Posts: 6703
Location: Iowa, USA
Jim McGuire wrote:
FROM OUR FRIENDS ON THE FLUTE FORUM:
Celtoid wrote:
It's been said before a million times, but avoid mass-production Pakistani flutes at all cost.

It's been said before a million times, but avoid mass-production Pakistani flutes at all cost.

It's been said before a million times, but avoid mass-production Pakistani flutes at all cost.

It's been said before a million times, but avoid mass-production Pakistani flutes at all cost.

STUPID ME never read the posts here on c&f before getting one..

they...smell bad, sound worse and even make lousy firewood :moreevil:

The price is right but the product is VERY bad.

I am still looking for a flute but am, now chastened, and will use the Boehm model that we have until I can get a decent Irish style.

It has been said a million times. Perhaps that is why, at the beginning of this thread, JES made the following request which I post here again for your convenience:

JES wrote:
I would like to point out that not all Pakistani made UPs are unplayable, but the experience of most makers and pipers would concur that it is better to spend your money on a set who's maker is available for comment, reeds, advice and repair.

I would like to solicit observations from experienced makers and pipers about Pakistani made UPs.

I am also going to ask permission from Wally Charm, editor of The Piper's Review to reprint the above mentioned article within this topic.

Please, stick to well thought out, substantiated and verifiable responses about these instruments only.

_________________
Diligentia maximum etiam mediocris ingeni subsidium. ~ Diligence is a very great help even to a mediocre intelligence.----Seneca


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:00 pm
Posts: 508
Location: San Diego
A pointer to Mr. Cannady's statement on this board regarding such instruments seems appropriate to this thread:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=412775&#412775

_________________
Jonathan

Help, Help! I'm being repressed...


Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:40 pm
Posts: 13780
Location: ... who cares?...
Jumper wrote:
A pointer to Mr. Cannady's statement on this board regarding such instruments seems appropriate to this thread:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=412775&#412775


This is the post by Pat Cannady from the FAQ FAQ FAQ page:

Pat Cannady wrote:
Do not buy Indian, Pakistani, or "budget" practice sets from highland pipe outfitters or specialty import retailers. The prices of quality UPs may be daunting, but these are not a cheap alternative. They will still cost you some money, and worse, they will waste your time if you're at all serious about piping.

Some of these instruments can be nice looking, and their level of workmanship is variable, but they all suffer from the same basic problem:

They were made with by people of varying skills who had and continue to have a poor understanding of how uilleann pipe bores and reeds work. Many of the Indian or Pakistani manufacturers make Highland pipes of varying quality and appear to believe that qualifies them to build uilleann pipes. It doesn't.

The UP chanter is a very complex creature, much more like an early oboe than like a typical conical bore west european bagpipe chanter. It plays two octaves that must be in tune with itself at a minimum, and concert pitch instruments must be in tune with the commonly accepted pitch standard of today, A=440Hz. It's a time consuming process to make a UP chanter and the slightest error can throw the instrument out of tune.

Every south asian chanter or plastic chanter from a highland outfit or specialty shop I have ever encountered failed to be in tune with the A=440Hz standard or even with itself without extensive reworking such as re-reaming and movement of tone holes. Unless you are a seasoned pipemaker, the expense and delays of reworking such an instrument make buying a more expensive but functional, working instrument from a known maker a better option.

Some Highland pipe outfitters or specialty import shops sell a "starter set" or "practice set" featuring a plastic chanter with a plastic reed, vinyl bag, and a bellows; this too is rubbish. It cannot play an in-tune two octave UP scale, period. And plastic reeds sound like a cat with its tail in a garbage disposal. :boggle:

Which brings me to my next observation about these "bargain" instruments:

Who do you go to if your reed suddenly shrivels up and turns to dust? What if you drop your chanter and break off a key block? Keep in mind that even if the manufacturers do send replacement reeds, they will probably work their best in Pakistan or India or wherever they were made.

Beginners, you are better off acquiring your instruments from a known pipemaker with a name, address, phone number, and email. Ideally this person should not live any great distance away from you but that is not always possible in North America or other parts of the Irish diaspora. Try to buy from someone who lives on the same continent if possible. Don't buy from a maker who lives "across the pond" until you are comfortable making your own reeds.

An instrument from a known pipemaker should sound better and be more in tune than any of these options, and you can get help if you need it. Stay away from "bargains" unless an experienced piper - someone who has been playing for a while and knows pipes - tells you it's a bargain. And don't rely on just one opinion when choosing your first instrument.

And another thing...

If at all possible GET A TEACHER. I know it was mentioned earlier in the thread but it must be hammered home. This is not an instrument you should try learning on your own without guidance. Videos, DVDs, and books can help, but are not a substitute for sitting face to face with someone who's been playing for 20 or 30 years or more and really knows their stuff.

End of rant.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: awildman and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.271s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)