It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:51 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 2468
How much does the diaphragm come in play, when playing the flute.

I find that I use it when I really need to hit the bottom D or E at the end of phrase, and the breathe was two bars back.

Or is the diaphragm used all the time to push out the wind.

Mark

_________________
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 1590
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
My opinion is that it is in constant play. Here is a past post from the archives...

Quote:
Basic breathing is a active inhale (principally utilizing the diaphragm) with a passive exhale (principally caused by the weight of the air between here and space). It is also possible to force an exhale by essentially squeezing your chest. Good diaphragmatic breathing recognizes the uncontrolled nature of the passive exhale and consists of two (arbitrary for this discussion) phases.

1. Full breath from the stomach area (read diaphragm). Most people have relatively shallow breathing. I don't remember the statistics any longer, but most folks only change something like 50% of the oxygen in any given breath. We only partially fill (as Nico suggested) our entire lung capacity. This is where breath training for an asthmatic comes in. Rather than sitting slouched in a chair only half breathing - running, whistling, fluting, singing, etc. all help us to understand the physiologic way in which our bodies are best able to intake the most air. Physical activity includes the added benefit of increasing the hemoglobin (oxygen carrier) content of our blood making the lung capacity that we do have more effective. As an experienced asthmatic myself, I recommend a combination of physical exercise and breath training (ie. whistle or flute playing).

2. The second part of breathing is the exhale and in whistle or flute playing the key is to regulate the process. This is not the passive exhale nor is it the forced exhale but rather requires quite an amount of controlled effort. This is why it might feel like we are breathing out with our diaphragm. In reality, though, we need to control the air by using our diaphragm to resist exhalation as well as using our chest to [isometrically] resist the diaphragm. See? Me either. Hum. It's like a tug of war in our chest. The air pressure around us and our chest muscles are trying to get rid of the air while our diaphragm needs to try to resist the process. This is why it's work. We need to train ourselves to exhale measured amounts of air under pressure. So, while we do not technically breath out with our diaphragm, it is still part of the process in good 'wind instrument' exhalation.


There's more that can be said, but the bottom line is that our lungs are directly connected to our lips by a column of air. It's all about how you shape (in the throat, mouth and lips) and distribute that column.

Peace,
Erik


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 2468
Thanks Eric

That is what I was starting to figure out. I will have to work on it.

Mark

_________________
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2001 4:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 411
Location: Shanghai, China
You must be too young to remember the lessons from the TV show Kung Fu.

Breath from your belly button, grasshopper, all things are there, including flute tone and breath control. Breathe from upper lungs is the way of the barbarians who only play guitars.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2001 4:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 83
I agree with all of the above. When I breathe in, I try to quickly push my diaphragm down into my stomach and open my mouth fairly wide, to allow as much air in as I possibly can in the shortest possible time. It's like a quiet but very deep hiccup.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2001 5:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 2468
Oh gcollins you are so kind, to think that I am to young to remember grasshopper.

Take a deep breathe.

Do you remember the ED Sullivan show, or Walter Cronkite's "You are There", or Omnibus?

I have improved my posture while practicing and now have rediscovered other anatomical parts that help in flute playing.

Thanks again :smile: :smile:

Mark



_________________
"Things themselves don't hurt or hinder us. Nor do other people. It is our attitudes and our reactions that give us trouble. We cannot choose our external cicumstances, but we can choose how to respond to them." --Epictetus

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MarkB on 2001-09-07 07:03 ]</font>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2001 12:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 2350
Part of the key to good diaphram control is the use of the nose. Not only should you know how to take in breath through both the mouth and nose while you play, but you should know how to EXHALE through your nose WHILE you play. This gets rid of "stale" air and greatly increases the capacity of your body to take in fresh air for playing. I don't do this a lot on the flute, but I use it quite a bit on the whistle as I'm not using near as much breath.

_________________
David Migoya
Fyfer Restorations
http://www.fyfer-restorations.com
"Bringing Yesterday's Flutes to Today's Players"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Migoya on 2001-09-08 02:27 ]</font>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:33 am
Posts: 5199
Location: Eastern Australia
TOPIC REVIVAL WARNING
(justified IMO because the breath is a perennial issue).


thats a very interesting comment Mr Migoya.
I will try it out.
thanks.

_________________
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:17 am
Posts: 9821
Location: The Inside Passage
Make sure you also use spermicide.

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:49 pm
Posts: 3829
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
David Migoya wrote:
Part of the key to good diaphram control is the use of the nose. Not only should you know how to take in breath through both the mouth and nose while you play, but you should know how to EXHALE through your nose WHILE you play. This gets rid of "stale" air and greatly increases the capacity of your body to take in fresh air for playing. I don't do this a lot on the flute, but I use it quite a bit on the whistle as I'm not using near as much breath.

Circular breathing is an advanced technique on the flute. Robert Dick talks about and gives examples on how to do this at his website. I find it easier to do circular breathing on an instrument where there is no gap between the mouth and the mouthpiece of the instrument, such as a whistle or a digeridoo. I think that it would take really good embouchure development to successfully do this on the side-blown flute. I think that I could learn how to do this, but so far I have not been successful.

_________________
David Migoya
Fyfer Restorations
http://www.fyfer-restorations.com
"Bringing Yesterday's Flutes to Today's Players"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Migoya on 2001-09-08 02:27 ]</font>[/quote]

_________________
http://ie.youtube.com/user/dougsflutes
http://tippleflutes.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2248
Location: Montreal
The whole "diaphragmatic breathing" thing is really just a figure of speech: it's impossible to inhale or exhale without the diaphragm, and in fact the diaphragm is mechanically responsible for the whole process.

When you inhale, your diaphgragm moves down to create a vaccum in your lungs, forcing air to flow in to fill the vaccum. The downward movement of the diaphragm pushes on your stomach and intestines, which is why your belly bulges when you inhale.

In a normal unsupported exhale, your diaphragm moves back up and pushes air out of your lungs.

When you're playing the flute (or singing), the so-called diaphragm support really involves using a combination of your abdominal muscles and your mouth to control the exhale so it doesn't come out all at once but instead is sustained at a constant pressure for as long as you can.

It's very similar to the process of playing a bagpipe: your arm squeezes the bag with a constant pressure until the bag starts to empty and you pump or blow air back in to fill it up. In the case of playing the flute, your abdominal muscles tighten to regulate and support the outflow of air. As I said in another thread, you want to look like Buddha at the end of your inhale (i.e., big belly), and like Gandhi at the end of your exhale (i.e., your navel should be as close as it can get to your backbone).

When you're first trying this, I find it helpful to hold your breath as if you were going to swim underwater, and then let out the air very slowly and gradually while using your abdominal muscles to support the air column. Gradually you can learn to provide the same support in a more natural way that involves no restriction at the windpipe. I had a voice teacher once, when I was using voice-recognition software and was worried about voice strain, and she could talk or sing for almost a full minute without having to inhale. I can manage 30 seconds comfortably on a normal breath of air (without gulping a big breath).

One of the great masters of supported breath control was Ella Fitzgerald. She could take incredibly long phrases and end them comfortably without ever running out of breath; she was amazing that way, and it's worth listening to that aspect of her singing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:24 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Spokane, Wa
I also regulate the air by releasing some through my nose while playing whistle, but not flute. And yes, I do remember Omnibus and You Are There. Sigh {diaphragm working}.

_________________
huffin' and puffin'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Steve Bliven and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.403s | 15 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)