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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:14 am 
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First question:
It's dance music, of course, and the dance never stops until it's done.

It is in this vein that I have taken advice (heard at Brother Steves', and elsewhere) not to breathe at the end of a part, before the repeat. The point is to keep the pulse going, I gather. So, I would like to play like this:

(T:Ships Are Sailing (snipet); K:E Dorian)

... g2bg f2af | edef gfed |] Be z d BcdB | ADED ADED |...

The "z" is a rest and the place I think I should breathe on the repeat, without disrupting the pulse of the end of the second part.

Well, I don't really manage. There are tunes that lend themselves so well to taking a breath at the end of the part. Look at this transcription of The Knotted Cord (aka Junior Crehan's Favorite):

Image

(Thanks to Brother Steve for letting me use his transcription. It is part of his tin-whistle pages. Look for Advanced Ornamentation: Rolls - the practice page. There you will also find the sound clip from which I learned the tune.)

Steve playes off-beat rolls on A at the end of both parts. But I find myself taking a breath there, and starting the repeat/other part with a new attack. (Maybe I am facing repressed classical-music traumata from my childhood?)

How heinous a sin am I committing? (Concertina-players, fiddlers & pipers need not respond to this one.)

<hr>

Second question:
I like making up my own sets of tunes. It's fun and permits me not to encumber my mind with what is commonly played together or not.

Right now, I really like playing the Knotted Cord (see above) into Sally Garden (and sometimes followed by Green Groves of Erin). So I have been thinking about the transition from one tune into the other. My question is: How much attention should I call to that transition?

First off, there is a key change, so one would hope the transition isn't entirely lost. The easiest thing is to just play:

... BABd egga | dBGA BA~A2 |] G2DG B2GB | dBeB dBAB ....

But I thought a bit of a statement would be nice, and so now I play:

... BABd egga | dBGA BA~A2 |] >g4 B2gB | dBeB dBAB ....

It seems (to my untutored) ears especially nice when the guitarist at the session accents that first beat of Sally Gardens with a whopping G-major chord (they can usually manage a G-major chord).

How do you tackle these tune transitions, with extra emphasis or without?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:22 am 
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On 2002-08-14 10:14, Bloomfield wrote:
It is in this vein that I have taken advice (heard at Brother Steves', and elsewhere) not to breathe at the end of a part, before the repeat. The point is to keep the pulse going, I gather. So, I would like to play like this:

(T:Ships Are Sailing (snipet); K:E Dorian)

... g2bg f2af | edef gfed |] Be z d BcdB | ADED ADED |...

The "z" is a rest and the place I think I should breathe on the repeat, without disrupting the pulse of the end of the second part.


Taking a breath/leaving a rest in the spot you gave will give a very syncopated feeling. If you like that kind of thing, it's fun to do - once maybe. But the effect would quickly get tiresome - to my ears anyway. For a more conventional place to breathe, try

Beed BzdB
or
Bzed BcdB

The tip about not breathing at the ends of sections shouldn't become a hard and fast rule, anyway. Ergo, sin not heinous. But don't commit it every time. Be continent occasionally.

As far as your Sally Gardens question goes, might you be in danger of another mortal sin - letting how you play the melody be influenced by what accompanists may or may not do? This is fine if you're playing in a band, of course, but how does your whole-note G sound when you're playing on your own?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 11:08 am 
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On 2002-08-14 12:22, StevieJ wrote:
...Be continent occasionally.


I cannot even begin to fathom how much I have learned form this message forum, and how inspiring some of the advice given in it has been. But it's the first time continence has been recommended to me. :smile:

So, you don't like the g4? Well, does sound a bit stark, I'll admit. But I am looking for a bit of a bang, you know, like everybody in a ceili band going Errrrrnggh!! on the first beat of a tune. I guess, I'll have to come up with something else, anyway: For some reason none of the guitarists are speaking to me anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:39 am 
First of all I don’t like the high a in that egga, that’s awkward going down to the d for the round up

BABd egga|dBGA BA A||

I would normally go

BABd efge|dBGA BA A2||

But OK matter of taste probably.

For the last time through the tune you could think of

BABd gaba|gedB BA A2||

Following Palnxty maybe but raising that bit gives you a nice flourish going into the ending.

If you must go into the Sally gardens you could consider going

BABd gaba|gedB A2z2||

Giving you a marked bang to end on and breathing space before you lash into the Sallies.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:31 am 
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On 2002-08-15 08:39, Peter Laban wrote:
First of all I don’t like the high a in that egga, that’s awkward going down to the d for the round up

BABd egga|dBGA BA A||


Ha! It's a mistake in the transcription. Well spotted Peter. I actually play | BABd egge | etc.

Quote:
I would normally go

BABd efge|dBGA BA A2||

But OK matter of taste probably.


That is more conventional, but actually I deliberately keep this tune F#-free. I've got a thing about keeping obviously pentatonic tunes pentatonic where reasonably possible - a matter of taste, as you say. For the same reason I don't like to play the ubiquitous "ef#g" variation in the turn of Out on the Ocean.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:08 am 
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Quote:
On 2002-08-15 08:39, Peter Laban wrote:
First of all I don’t like the high a in that egga, that’s awkward going down to the d for the round up

BABd egga|dBGA BA A||

I would normally go

BABd efge|dBGA BA A2||

But OK matter of taste probably.

I actually play either ... egge | dBGA ... or ...e~g3 | dBGA ... which is what Steve does on the sound clip. Maybe I'll try the revolting f#, though. :wink:

Quote:
For the last time through the tune you could think of

BABd gaba|gedB BA A2||

Following Palnxty maybe but raising that bit gives you a nice flourish going into the ending.

I like that! I'll definitely get that one down.

Quote:
If you must go into the Sally gardens ....


All right, so what's wrong with it? :grin: Any problem apart form S.G. being such a chestnut? I like the change because the key change is subtle (E-Dorian to G-major) and the melody goes from flowing (Knotted Cord) to choppy (Sally G), with the B parts being similar yet different. Mmh... maybe this is a larger question.

Quote:
... you could consider going

BABd gaba|gedB A2z2||

Giving you a marked bang to end on and breathing space before you lash into the Sallies.

What do you think?

I'll try that. I looks great. Just trying it very softly at my desk I felt myself tempted to turn it into

BABd gaba|gedB Az DE||G2DG B2GB etc.

I feel more uncertain and directionless with these transitions than I do with, say, putting in a roll instead of AGA figure or something. Seems more mysterious to me. :???:

Thanks for the suggestions!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:32 am 
I would normally muffle that f a bit either by using a tight triplet on the pipes or reversing the efge into edge, what I would do in out on the ocean as well.
But then, I have picked up elements of Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan's versions andd they both had no bother at all playing the Fs in that tune, in fact I play it with Kitty hayes who hasthe version Josie [her late husband] played with Junior and she ends it egfa gedB BA A2.
Never a definite answer to these problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:14 am 
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Steve, agree with you breathing suggestions for Ships... much better than what I was doing (which sounds a bit like a hiccup to me now).

Peter, tried your suggestions for Knotted C into Sally G and like them (also the other one---quite wild). What's interesting to me is that you put the bang at the end of the first tune, rather than at the start of the second, as was my impulse. I guess it is more natural that way because it chimes with the tendency to increase variation with each repetition. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:25 am 
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Quote:
agree with you breathing suggestions for Ships... much better than what I was doing (which sounds a bit like a hiccup to me now).

Alternatively, one could say your version sounds more brianfinneganish. :smile: However, Steve's suggestion is definitely the more traditional.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:26 am 
Wild, hm, and I thought I was leading a sheltered life.

I go into the Sallies G2 DG BDGB dBeB etc
which probably works better on the pipes with the strong bottom Ds honking in but it works on the whistle [just to keep you busy practising]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 9:40 pm 
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I've been working on that, Peter. Like the D in there it give more structure to that phrase. But it's not for the session I think. The D is too soft on the whistle. This reminds me, btw, of when I hear Mary Bergin in concert. She very often brought a decending phrase at then end of a part up an octave, to keep it from being drowned by Joe McKenna's pipes, I presume.

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