Tonguing technique

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
User avatar
Gary90
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I don't know what you wan't to know. Other than I am not a spammer who is has to write a minimum of 100 characters.
Location: Belfast

Tonguing technique

Post by Gary90 »

Hi folks, i have been learning from the instant tin whistle irish edition and in some songs there may be the same notr repeated 2 or 3 times. I have been trying the tongue technique. Saying To and T to see which works for me but i get shrill if i do it fast or if i slow down to do it quiet and keep the same level it just doesn't sound right. Is there any advice anyone could give me?
Beeox
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:13 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I am interested in the forums as I am a new whistle player and want to connect with like-minded folks in a positive and constructive manner that edifies us all.
Location: "[A] lucky country run by second rate people who share its luck" (D. Horne).

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Beeox »

Hi Gary90. Brother Steve offers an invaluable resource on tonguing (and more) at https://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/ ... guing.html Well worth a look.
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by pancelticpiper »

Tonguing is one of those things that gets better with practice.

You can experiment with different "points of articulation" as they're called in linguistics.

"T" is done furthest forward in the oral cavity. I think players use T because it tends to be the clearest or crispest stop.

"K" is done further back in the oral cavity and tend to be a bit softer/gentler or less crisp.

So you could try playing a tune using "too" for tonguing, then play the same tune using "koo" for tonguing, and see how they sound and feel.

Even further back in the oral cavity is the Glottal Stop, for which English doesn't have a letter. Often an apostrophe ' is used to symbolise a glottal stop.

Think of somebody saying bottle as bo'le with the ' standing for the glottal stop that replaces medial t with many English speakers.

You can practice the same tune three times using too, koo, and ' for the stops, and hear and feel the different effect you get each time.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Peter Duggan »

pancelticpiper wrote:"T" is done furthest forward in the oral cavity. I think players use T because it tends to be the clearest or crispest stop.
'D' is also good. Often recommended for recorder because it's like a less explosive 'T', and appropriate to whistles for the same reason.
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
User avatar
Gary90
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I don't know what you wan't to know. Other than I am not a spammer who is has to write a minimum of 100 characters.
Location: Belfast

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Gary90 »

Thanks for the replys guys. I will definitely have a read at the article that was posted. Maybe i am thinking into this too much but when tonguing to seperate 2 off the same note am i looking for a brief pause inbetween the same notes, like a split second off a pause? I have a cd off the song im trying to play but i just can't seem to replicate it. I know practice is the only way to get it but i would like to learn as much about this technique. Sometimes i can hear myself say too through the whistle rather than the actuall effect i should be getting if that makes sense.
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Peter Duggan »

Gary90 wrote:Sometimes i can hear myself say too through the whistle rather than the actuall effect i should be getting if that makes sense.
Whisper it!
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
Katharine
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:10 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Something..............................................................................................

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Katharine »

Maybe it would help to think of it, rather than as saying "too/tu," to think of tapping your tongue against the roof of your mouth, silently. Practice it away from the instrument. Practice it on a single note. Practice it on notes you don't have to "think" about too much, like scales.
Here's tae us--
Wha's like us?
Damn few--
And they're a' deid--
Mair's the pity.
pkev
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Scotland

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by pkev »

Hi There

It may be worth considering trying Luh as opposed to tuh, L softens the attack more than tuh or kuh or duh

Pkev
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by pancelticpiper »

Peter Duggan wrote: 'D' is also good. Often recommended for recorder because it's like a less explosive 'T', and appropriate to whistles for the same reason.
T and D have the same point of articulation (the alveolar ridge) in English, the only difference is that T is voiceless and D is voiced. ("Voiced" means the vocal cords are vibrating, "voiceless" means that they are not.) Thus T is a voiceless alveolar stop and D is a voiced alveolar stop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_stop

K and G have the same point of articulation, K being voiceless and G being voiced.

Using D and G would mean the vocal cords vibrating while playing flute or whistle, singing and playing simultaneously, which is heard in Jazz but not usually heard in Irish trad.

Since the vocal cords usually aren't vibrating when playing Irish flute or whistle T and K are used.

Here is playing flute while the vocal cords are vibrating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s49BZYibMiw
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
StevieJ
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Old hand, active in the early 2000s. Less active in recent years but still lurking from time to time.
Location: Montreal

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by StevieJ »

Gary90 wrote:when tonguing to seperate 2 off the same note am i looking for a brief pause inbetween the same notes, like a split second off a pause.
You could be onto something there. For years I couldn't understand why I couldn't get students to produce the articulation I wanted with tonguing in certain places. Particularly using the tongue to articulate two consecutive notes, a technique that many Irish players, including Mary Bergin, use a lot in jigs when the second and third note of a group of three are the same note.

The lightbulb moment came when I realized that you are not only using the tongue to start the second of these notes, you are also using it to stop the first in a separate motion before you tongue the second note. This is what allows you to shorten the first of these two notes and create the split-second gap that is essential to the phrasing you want. Maybe this is what you are aiming for.

This is not just useful with repeated notes in jigs. It is very handy for producing very precise phrasing in other tune types, including reels.
User avatar
Gary90
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I don't know what you wan't to know. Other than I am not a spammer who is has to write a minimum of 100 characters.
Location: Belfast

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Gary90 »

StevieJ wrote:
Gary90 wrote:when tonguing to seperate 2 off the same note am i looking for a brief pause inbetween the same notes, like a split second off a pause.
You could be onto something there. For years I couldn't understand why I couldn't get students to produce the articulation I wanted with tonguing in certain places. Particularly using the tongue to articulate two consecutive notes, a technique that many Irish players, including Mary Bergin, use a lot in jigs when the second and third note of a group of three are the same note.

The lightbulb moment came when I realized that you are not only using the tongue to start the second of these notes, you are also using it to stop the first in a separate motion before you tongue the second note. This is what allows you to shorten the first of these two notes and create the split-second gap that is essential to the phrasing you want. Maybe this is what you are aiming for.

This is not just useful with repeated notes in jigs. It is very handy for producing very precise phrasing in other tune types, including reels.
I didn't realise how bad my grammar was lol. That quote you sent should of been "when tonguing two notes that are the same" lol glad you got something out off it lol.
User avatar
Gary90
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:35 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I don't know what you wan't to know. Other than I am not a spammer who is has to write a minimum of 100 characters.
Location: Belfast

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Gary90 »

Guys im finding "kuh" working for me more times than not. As it isn't as aggressive. Cheers for the suggestions i will practice both kuh and T
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by Peter Duggan »

pancelticpiper wrote:T and D have the same point of articulation (the alveolar ridge) in English
Yes, but D feels like a slightly gentler push, which is why it's often recommended for low-pressure woodwinds.
Using D and G would mean the vocal cords vibrating while playing flute or whistle, singing and playing simultaneously
Not necessarily true; I'm not singing and playing simultaneously when tonguing when D and G!
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
User avatar
swizzlestick
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:34 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Boulder, Colorado

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by swizzlestick »

The discussion about fast tonguing made me realize that I often alternate from T to K articulation and back when trying for speed.

Is this a common practice or just something I have developed?
All of us contain Music & Truth, but most of us can't get it out. -- Mark Twain
User avatar
StevieJ
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Old hand, active in the early 2000s. Less active in recent years but still lurking from time to time.
Location: Montreal

Re: Tonguing technique

Post by StevieJ »

Gary90 wrote:I didn't realise how bad my grammar was lol. That quote you sent should of been "when tonguing two notes that are the same" lol glad you got something out off it lol.
Yes, I understood perfectly well what you were saying. Did you understand my answer though? :)
Post Reply