The most "chiff" sounding whistle???

[Greenfire]

oh, yes, it definitely has evolved then, even wikipedia describes that piece as a fipple plug, and indicates the entire mouthpiece assembly as the the fipple, though some dictionaries do at least mention that it used to be the term only for the block.

There's a neat diagram here (https://www.thecarvingpath.net/topic/24 ... -woodwind/) that describes different parts of a fipple, considering the entire mouthpiece as a fipple. No explanation of how the "externally ducted fipple" of native American inspired flutes though, I expect they still contain a fipple block somewhere.


I suppose there's probably some gatekeeping about terms with pedants though?

[Peter Duggan]

I suppose there's probably some gatekeeping about terms with pedants though?

So where does pedantry begin when clarity matters, and should we just stop caring about clear, correct usage?

The fipple is the block, yes. It can be the beak or mouthpiece, yes. But it's not the edge/blade/labium, and describing this part as such (which some do) helps no-one when it already has at least three perfectly good, clear names of its own.

[Greenfire]

So where does pedantry begin when clarity matters, and should we just stop caring about clear, correct usage?

The other day I commented to a whistler that I had never seen a clear fipple before, and he knew exactly what I was talking about, didn't feel the need to correct me. I'm sure that others would also understand if someone were to ask if there is a difference between the green or black fipples on a given whistle, or if another person were to ask how to remove a glued on fipple so they can tune a whistle.

I suppose pedantry would begin when someone would pretend not to understand what any of those or similar situations meant.

Here's the wiki if you feel you need to edit it for clear, correct usage, you can simply delete most of the page and talk about the block instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple

[Peter Duggan]

Here's the wiki if you feel you need to edit it for clear, correct usage, you can simply delete most of the page and talk about the block instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple

I'm not interested in editing that and don't need you to tell me I can if I want to. You can call the whole mouthpiece whatever you like, but that neither makes you right nor me a pedant if I don't.

[Greenfire]

A simple "yes" would have answered the question adequately

I'm not sure Wikipedia would appreciate a change in any case, they probably consider their use of the term as correct as you consider it incorrect.

As far as I'm concerned, words evolve, as does music. I'm happy to have an understanding of origins of terms, and am a fan of etymology, but, not a stickler for using the original wording for something. Nor even the correct grammar, so long as I can still understand the person speaking, and if I can't, I'm capable of asking them to be more clear.

Shame if we lost the word fipple entirely though, and instead used block and mouthpiece to avoid any confusion. I've seen conversations with flutists where they correct anyone for daring to call a whistle a flute, when fipple flute isn't really an incorrect description for one.


Makes one wonder what chiffandblock would attract though, woodworkers?

[whistlecollector]

A simple "yes" would have answered the question adequately

I'm not sure Wikipedia would appreciate a change in any case, they probably consider their use of the term as correct as you consider it incorrect.

Actually, that's the whole point of Wikipedia: someone who actually knows what they're talking about can review an article and correct errors.

As far as I'm concerned, words evolve, as does music. I'm happy to have an understanding of origins of terms, and am a fan of etymology, but, not a stickler for using the original wording for something. Nor even the correct grammar, so long as I can still understand the person speaking, and if I can't, I'm capable of asking them to be more clear.

Yes, language does evolve, and that's kind of beside the point. The question was one of a technical matter, and precision in usage and convention in meaning are all required. This way confusion and bemusement can be avoided --- the exact problems we're seeing in this thread! I would have thought that this would be seen more as a learning moment, rather than a "oh well, language evolves, what can we do about it!" moment.

Though I am kind of surprised that after C&F has been in operation for so many years now, there's so much confusion about the two title words in the forum's name!

[Greenfire]

okay, I apologise, I thought it was simply evolution of the word, not that it was such a serious crime. My bad. Please forgive me, I'll never do it again.

[Nanohedron]

Though I am kind of surprised that after C&F has been in operation for so many years now, there's so much confusion about the two title words in the forum's name!

Without a doubt, Dale chose the name for its enigmatic quality as much as for its catchiness; that's pure Dale. But who would have foreseen that chiffs and fipples remain actual enigmas in and of themselves? It's almost as if the name is a kōan.

[Tunborough]

From the recently deceased Jeremy Montagu, highly-regarded writer, researcher, and collector of musical instruments, and former president of the Galpin Society ...

Another term, ‘fipple flute’, is a pure nonsense because the word ‘fipple’ has never been clearly defined. Many authors have used it: some for the whole head, some for the block, some for the duct, some for the mouth. If everybody uses the word ‘fipple’ for a different part of the instrument, then indeed we have a nonsensical term, one which conveys no sense.

[leydog]

Back to the original thread: first, as an organist, I agree with those who define "chiff" as transient harmonics that sound when the tone is initiated. (It's what makes a tracker-action organ special). I liked it on the organ. I like it less on the whistle.

I find that the Tony Dixon alloy mezzo and low whistles have an almost clarion tone. But they also produce those transient "chiffs," either by mistake or on purpose. If I don't cover the hole completely, or a passage involves changing registers quickly, or I'm not maintaining consistent breath, I may get that occasional blip. The notes B, C, d, e, and f are especially prone to "chiffing." Seems like some players use that quality for effect--kind of like the honking a flute player uses to for rhythmic or melodic accent.

I hear it also on Chieftains, and Kerrys, and less so on MKs. I don't find that to be the case on the TD or other ABS whistles. Could it be something about the acoustics of an alloy or aluminum lower pitched whistle?

[Dan A.]

Could it be something about the acoustics of an alloy or aluminum lower pitched whistle?

Likely so. I'm not the best judge of "chiff," but the sound of my Feadóg best matches my understanding of that abstraction. My ABS/PVC whistles and the Clarkes are the farthest from "chiff," to my ears.

[whistlecollector]

Back to the original thread: first, as an organist, I agree with those who define "chiff" as transient harmonics that sound when the tone is initiated. (It's what makes a tracker-action organ special). I liked it on the organ. I like it less on the whistle.

I find that the Tony Dixon alloy mezzo and low whistles have an almost clarion tone. But they also produce those transient "chiffs," either by mistake or on purpose. If I don't cover the hole completely, or a passage involves changing registers quickly, or I'm not maintaining consistent breath, I may get that occasional blip. The notes B, C, d, e, and f are especially prone to "chiffing." Seems like some players use that quality for effect--kind of like the honking a flute player uses to for rhythmic or melodic accent.

I hear it also on Chieftains, and Kerrys, and less so on MKs. I don't find that to be the case on the TD or other ABS whistles. Could it be something about the acoustics of an alloy or aluminum lower pitched whistle?

Considering that a whistle is essentially an organ pipe with extra holes in the side, chiff is not a surprising result of their design.

As I recall, we had an organ builder respond earlier in the thread, who I'm sure can provide a better explanation of the acoustics involved. I think it has much to do with the positioning of the blade and the design of the window & airway more than material used.

[Sedi]

I hear it also on Chieftains, and Kerrys, and less so on MKs. I don't find that to be the case on the TD or other ABS whistles. Could it be something about the acoustics of an alloy or aluminum lower pitched whistle?

I suspect in case of the Chieftains or rather the Thunderbird whistles it might be caused by the rather long windway. Would be interesting to compare the current "Busker" model to the older Thunderbird high D. The Busker has a shorter windway which should reduce "chiff" in the sense of "attack sound". The longer windway of the Thunderbirds means that it takes a fraction of a second longer till a focussed airstream hits the blade which causes the distinctive chiff.
Speaking from my experience as a hobby whistle maker (I wanted to "go pro" but the pandemic made shipping rather expensive and I have too much to do in my day job) -- "breathiness" in the meaning of "wind noise" that is not a part of the note itself (if you wanna know how a "pure" instrument sounds like -- try the ocarina, a certain "breathiness" IMO is essential for the whistle sound) is mainly caused by the length of the window and blade geometry. As a rule of thumb: longer window makes the sound more breathy as the windstream is less focussed. A longer ramp of the blade and a sharp blade will also increase breathiness. A short window with a dull blade and short ramp will make for minimum breathiness but it can also influence octave tuning. A longer window and longer ramp will make the sound more breathy with the added advantage that the octave jump is a little stiffer which improves octave tuning of the 2nd octave (simply because you blow harder and therefore blow the 2nd octave in tune, which is normally slightly flat). That's part of the reason why whistle-making is always a compromise of finding the right balance of tone, tuning and ease of playing. Paradoxically a rather breathy 1st octave caused by a long window and long blade can lead to a more pure sounding 2nd octave because you have to blow harder, which increases the speed of the airstream which in turn reduces (or can reduce) breathiness of the 2nd octave.
That's just from my limited experience in making a bunch of whistles, some of which turned out pretty good me thinks. But I don't wanna brag. There are certainly other factors involved, like the shape of the windway but I never really experimented with that. All my whistles have flat windways. I mainly experimented with different blade geometry and window size to find the sweet spot which produces the best tuning in a cylindrical (or in my case square profile but that just involves a little more math, the basic physics are the same) whistle without "tricks" like wedges or collars in the tube or simply using a tapered bore.

[pancelticpiper]

About terminology, from the linguistic point of view it's quite common in language for a word for part of something to evolve into a term for the whole of the thing, and visa versa.

To me "block" means just the plug, but then I remembered that "block-flute" is used to mean the entire instrument in some languages, "block" evidently implying/suggesting the means of tone production.

The more one gets into that stuff the less pedantic one becomes.

[Sedi]

True, in Germany the recorder is called "Blockflöte" and "Block" is the fipple plug. It is also a member of the family of "Schnabelflöten". "Schnabel" means "beak" -- same word is used in German for the beak of a bird. And that means the whole head of the flute, because it looks like a beak. That family would include the tin whistle and instruments like the ocarina or gemshorn. There is no German word for tin whistle.