Irish flute for newage/jazz/meditation music etc.

[neyzen]

Hi! I'm new to this forum so excuse me if I'm doing something wrong by posting here.

I'm an amateur musician with some skills. I play the Boehm flute, Turksh ney, Indian bansuri, Chinese dizi.

I've always wanted to play the Irish flute. But, my main motivation is not playing Irish folk music. I'm more into contemporary music such as newage, ethnic/instrumental, meditation music, jazz, etc. Still, I believe that the Irish flute would be the best instrument for my purposes.

Actually, I started playing dizi and bansuri only because I could not find any decent Irish flute in my region in the past. However, both the dizi and bansuri in D key are too big for my liking and smaller instruments are too "shrill". Don't get me wrong, I'm a big guy and I believe I can handle a Pratten easily. But I desperatly need a simple system conical flute in acceptable size with better tonal quality. Also, I like the sound of Western flutes more.

Still, Boehm flute also never satisfied me. As you know, most ornamentations are impossible on the Boehm due to the padded keys. In this regard, I strongly believe that simple system flutes are superior to the Boehm flute. Maybe design of Boehm was necessary for the classical music, but I personally believe that it ruined the essence of the flute.

Unfortunately, my budget for an Irish flute is limited to 400 dollars (Actually I will pay more than 700 due to custom charges in my country). I'll buy a keyless delrin flute (I need something durable), and I will have the keys added in the future.

I've read all the reccommendations on the forum. But considering that I'll not be playing Irish music, does any one have any different suggestions?

Would a Pratten or a Rudall style flute be better for newage/jazz/etc? Which delrin flute would be more suitable? Currently I'm considering Copley, Shannon, McNeela Lon Dubh flute, or the upcoming delrin flute by Casey Burns... Which one would you reccomend?

[busterbill]

You are fine to ask the question. Many of us would have experience with one or two of those flutes, but seldom all. So making a recommendation could be difficult. I would think that for jazz and new age music having a keyless flute would be limiting. But we all have to start somewhere. With that in mind I would wonder if the resale value of the instrument would make a difference. And getting keys added to a flute in the future would involve a trip to its maker adding more to that cost.

I wonder if a used M&E 6 keyed flute might fit the bill. They sometimes come up for just a little bit more than some of the keyless flutes you mention. I think they are running about 700 euros new shipped from Ireland. I don't know what kind of tax you'd pay from Ireland.

[jim stone]

I play all sort of music on Irish flute, blues, rock, Indian, OT, and a good deal of Celtic music.
I think Irish flute sounds great in these venues. Wish more flooters were exploring them.
The Copley bottom of the line delrin flute is very good. I use it busking. Also if you check his
board, he has a delrin six-key without rings or metal tuning slide (the delrin slide works fine)
for 1895. That's more than you have and, for the future, it's a good deal. Also the Irish Flute Store
may have good prices for playable/good six/eight key flutes. You might talk to Dave C about your needs,
and Blayne (who operates the IFS) is vastly knowledgeable and helpful.

[fatmac]

I don't play ITM, I just play anything that I like on them, (I have several whistles, flutes & piccolos).

I love the fact that they don't have keys, they're almost maintenance free.

If you get used to cross fingering or half holing, you won't need any keys.

I have Delrin low 'D' flutes from Tony Dixon, (3 piece), & Damian Thompson, (2 piece), with a (3 piece) low 'F' from M&E, (the M&E is heavy).

[Peter Duggan]

If you get used to cross fingering or half holing, you won't need any keys.

It's not the same; if you need keys, you need keys!

I'll buy a keyless delrin flute (I need something durable), and I will have the keys added in the future.

But be aware that retrofitting keys will in most cases restrict you to third-party post-mounted keys rather than maker-fitted block-mounted.

Currently I'm considering Copley, Shannon, McNeela Lon Dubh flute, or the upcoming delrin flute by Casey Burns... Which one would you reccomend?

And Casey's new flutes aren't actually going to be Delrin.

[Sedi]

But be aware that retrofitting keys will in most cases restrict you to third-party post-mounted keys rather than maker-fitted block-mounted.

Are there any delrin flutes with block-mounted keys at all?

[Juan Pablo Plata]

But be aware that retrofitting keys will in most cases restrict you to third-party post-mounted keys rather than maker-fitted block-mounted.

Are there any delrin flutes with block-mounted keys at all?

Francois Baubet, David Copley, Vincenzo di Mauro to name a few.

[Peter Duggan]

David Copley

Exactly. If, for instance, you wanted Dave to retrofit his own (Marlene's) keys, you'd want to order the flute with the blocks from new, which should still be considerably cheaper than paying for the keys at that time.

[Flutern]

Unfortunately, my budget for an Irish flute is limited to 400 dollars (Actually I will pay more than 700 due to custom charges in my country). I'll buy a keyless delrin flute (I need something durable), and I will have the keys added in the future.

I've read all the reccommendations on the forum. But considering that I'll not be playing Irish music, does any one have any different suggestions?

Would a Pratten or a Rudall style flute be better for newage/jazz/etc? Which delrin flute would be more suitable? Currently I'm considering Copley, Shannon, McNeela Lon Dubh flute, or the upcoming delrin flute by Casey Burns... Which one would you reccomend?

Currently, on ebay, there's a boxwood Casey burns for about 400$. You should double check with the seller (or with Casey himself, he's very approachable), but my understanding is that it's his standard model, not the folk flute. This means that you should be able to retrofit post-mounted keys (but once again, check with him).

P.S. I've no link to this flute or seller

[neyzen]

Thank you everyone for your kind replies.

Since I'm in a climate with significant temperature differences, I will buy a delrin flute.

I'm quite accustomed to half opening the keys. I know especially some keys will limit my playing, but I will manage without the keys for now.

The only thing is that I cannot decide between Copley and Baubet flutes.

Irish music players seem to favor first octave notes with a raspy and wheezy quality, as if they are on the edge of mixing with the second octave notes (Sorry for my poor English).. Since I will not be playing Irish music, I do not need a wheezy and raspy sound in the first octave, I rather want more pure sound.

As far as I understand, Rudall & Rose style flutes (such as the Baubet flutes) produce a more pure sound. This is important for me.

However, I also learned that Pratten style flutes (such as the Copley flutes) have larger holes. I think larger holes could be an advantage for half opening the holes for the chromatic range.. Also it will be easier for me for some ornamentations such as glissendo..

Since Mr. Baubet is located in Europe, it will be easier for me to visit him in the future. But will smaller holes be a disadvantage for me?

[cac]

To reply to your question about hole size: it is a matter of some controversy whether large or small holes are better for slides, half-holing, etc. Grey Larsen has written that small holes are best and one of my flute playing friends agrees with him. However, my experience has been the exact opposite: the larger holes are definitely better for these things.

To reply to the question of whether Rudall-style flutes have a 'purer' sound than Pratten flutes, I would say that the answer is a qualified yes. Qualified first because there are actually small-holed, medium-holed and large-holed Rudall type flutes and I think the larger holed varieties would be more like Prattens (reedier). But more important than the type of flute is the flute player: you yourself can control how breathy/reedy the tone is.

Finally since Europe is more accessible to you, I would like to recommend Garry Somers' Rudall-style delrin flutes (he also makes Pratten-style ones). He is based in Ireland. These have medium-sized holes and are a joy to play in addition to being extremely well-made. You shouldn't have any trouble getting the sound you want from one although the sound will not be as large as the sound from a Pratten.

[Flutern]

However, I also learned that Pratten style flutes (such as the Copley flutes) have larger holes.

The Copley is not a Pratten, it's his own design "with the greatest influence being the flutes made by Hawkes and Son of London". They have medium size holes.

If I were you I wouldn't focus too much on the Rudall vs Pratten dichotomy, since most modern flutes are only loosely based on the originals, and the most important part (besides the player, as mentioned earlier) is the headjoint and the embouchure cut. Since you play the Boehm flute and mentioned that you were not interested in the dark sound typically found in Irish music, you might want to consider getting a squared embouchure cut rather than an elliptical one, as it tends to favor a brighter tone (all else being equal) and is more similar to the Boehm flute, of course. Copley offers that as an option (at no extra cost).

I think larger holes could be an advantage for half opening the holes for the chromatic range.. Also it will be easier for me for some ornamentations such as glissendo..

Quite possibly. One potential downside of large holed flutes is that the holes can be a bit more difficult to cover comfortably. That may or may not be a problem, depending on the size of your hands and your own preference. But then, if you alrealy play the bansuri, this is perhaps not a big concern .

Since Mr. Baubet is located in Europe, it will be easier for me to visit him in the future. But will smaller holes be a disadvantage for me?

I've never played a Baubet, but judging from the photos on his website the holes look more like medium size, not unlike what you would get on a Copley.

[neyzen]

I'm writing a bit late, but I really want to thank for all your replies.

I decided on buying a keyless delrin Copley flute. I hope to get a keyed one in the future as well.

After consulting with Mr. Copley, he advised a standard oval embouchure. It should give me more control since I'm an experienced flutist.

Best regards.

[jim stone]

Yes, I much prefer the oval embouchure on Dave's flutes, and in general.