Convert!

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
User avatar
Mr.Gumby
Posts: 6606
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: the Back of Beyond

Re: Convert!

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Not having names though is all about excluding the sasenach.
You may like the idea of that, the various placename projects however show just about every field or landmark was named, even if not all names were given to the surveyors. I think the sense of place was more important in this.
My brain hurts

Image
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Convert!

Post by Nanohedron »

PB+J wrote:Not having names though is all about excluding the sasenach. It's like the natives not telling the explorer where the river starts or ends. Not assigning names resists colonization.
I would counsel against so readily ascribing Friel's theories to Fahey's motivations. How are we to explain the predominating practice of naming tunes, otherwise? Sliabh Geal gCua na Féile was first titled in Irish, not English, and it's by no means the only one. Colonization may originally have to do with it, but in the end a name in English for an originally Irish title is simply a translation for those who don't speak the language and would struggle mightily with trying.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
PB+J
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a historian and the author of "The Beat Cop:Chicago's Chief O'Neill and the Creation of Irish Music," published by the University of Chicago in 2022. I live in Arlington VA and play the flute sincerely but not well

Re: Convert!

Post by PB+J »

I'm using sasenach here to describe a generic outsider.

I'm not accusing Fahey of anything at all: he can name his tunes as he pleases. But it's precisely the difficulty that results when someone want to play one of his tunes. Modern naming practices for songs are all closely connected to individual and corporate individual ownership: mapping and cataloguing it tracking it, making it so fees can be extracted. Folk music naming practices come out of an entirely different set of social and property relations.
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Convert!

Post by Nanohedron »

PB+J wrote:I'm using sasenach here to describe a generic outsider.
Well, not to be a pedant, but by definition Sasanach (Anglicized as sassenach) specifically means an English person, and in average parlance it's used more broadly as a pejorative for someone perceived to be part of the cultural fabric of the Anglosphere. It couldn't rightly be applied to the French, for example.

Gall is the word for "foreigner" in both Irish and Scots Gaelic, but unlike "sassenach", it hasn't been adopted into English. That being the case, I would argue that stretching "sassenach" to include all outsiders is a further example of colonial appropriation. :wink:
PB+J wrote:Modern naming practices for songs are all closely connected to individual and corporate individual ownership: mapping and cataloguing it tracking it, making it so fees can be extracted.
ASCAP and BMI have tried this tactic with Trad tunes. Hasn't gone so well for them.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Convert!

Post by benhall.1 »

Just out of interest, I have only ever heard the word "Sassenach" used by Scots, and only ever to describe English people, usually men. I mean, it is what the word means. (Well, I suppose, more accurately, it means Saxon.) The Welsh have Sais, which is derived from the same root, as in the common South Welsh expression, "There's sais for you!" meaning something along the lines of "typical bloody English!"
bwat
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Woodwind and brass player. Interested in jazz and folk music. I'm here for the flute discussions. I really can't think of anything else to report and I have to pad this out to at least 1000 characters.

Re: Convert!

Post by bwat »

benhall.1 wrote:Just out of interest, I have only ever heard the word "Sassenach" used by Scots, and only ever to describe English people, usually men. I mean, it is what the word means. (Well, I suppose, more accurately, it means Saxon.) The Welsh have Sais, which is derived from the same root, as in the common South Welsh expression, "There's sais for you!" meaning something along the lines of "typical bloody English!"
Not just the English, Doonhamers are sassenachs to the teuchter as well.
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Convert!

Post by benhall.1 »

bwat wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:Just out of interest, I have only ever heard the word "Sassenach" used by Scots, and only ever to describe English people, usually men. I mean, it is what the word means. (Well, I suppose, more accurately, it means Saxon.) The Welsh have Sais, which is derived from the same root, as in the common South Welsh expression, "There's sais for you!" meaning something along the lines of "typical bloody English!"
Not just the English, Doonhamers are sassenachs to the teuchter as well.
Really? Why would that be? Are they descended from English people?
bwat
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Woodwind and brass player. Interested in jazz and folk music. I'm here for the flute discussions. I really can't think of anything else to report and I have to pad this out to at least 1000 characters.

Re: Convert!

Post by bwat »

benhall.1 wrote:
bwat wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:Just out of interest, I have only ever heard the word "Sassenach" used by Scots, and only ever to describe English people, usually men. I mean, it is what the word means. (Well, I suppose, more accurately, it means Saxon.) The Welsh have Sais, which is derived from the same root, as in the common South Welsh expression, "There's sais for you!" meaning something along the lines of "typical bloody English!"
Not just the English, Doonhamers are sassenachs to the teuchter as well.
Really? Why would that be? Are they descended from English people?
You'll have to ask those who made the word up! Sassenach refers to lowland Scots and the English in modern usage. That's always been my understanding and the OED and Collins agrees with me (was surprised both got it right to be honest).
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Convert!

Post by benhall.1 »

bwat wrote:That's always been my understanding and the OED and Collins agrees with me (was surprised both got it right to be honest).
I have the full, thirteen volume edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. I've just looked it up now. It only says the word applies to English people. There's no mention of Lowland Scots. It says exactly what I said, that it derives from "Saxon".
bwat
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Woodwind and brass player. Interested in jazz and folk music. I'm here for the flute discussions. I really can't think of anything else to report and I have to pad this out to at least 1000 characters.

Re: Convert!

Post by bwat »

benhall.1 wrote:
bwat wrote:That's always been my understanding and the OED and Collins agrees with me (was surprised both got it right to be honest).
I have the full, thirteen volume edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. I've just looked it up now. It only says the word applies to English people. There's no mention of Lowland Scots. It says exactly what I said, that it derives from "Saxon".
You're right, the OED has it under saxon (cf. sassenach): https://www.oed.com/oed2/00214307 So, I'm not surprised they got it wrong!
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Convert!

Post by Nanohedron »

benhall.1 wrote:There's no mention of Lowland Scots.
I've come across this information as well, though. The implication was that only a Scot - presumably a Highlander - would use "sassenach" to refer to a Lowlander. It would have nothing to do with ancestry so much as it would a typecast perception of greater English cultural influence.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Convert!

Post by benhall.1 »

bwat wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
bwat wrote:That's always been my understanding and the OED and Collins agrees with me (was surprised both got it right to be honest).
I have the full, thirteen volume edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. I've just looked it up now. It only says the word applies to English people. There's no mention of Lowland Scots. It says exactly what I said, that it derives from "Saxon".
You're right, the OED has it under saxon (cf. sassenach): https://www.oed.com/oed2/00214307 So, I'm not surprised they got it wrong!
Not in the full, printed version that I have, it doesn't. It doesn't refer to it under "Saxon" but does have an entry for "Sassenach" in its own right, meaning English. I mean, that is what it means.

Now, since you mentioned it, I've looked and found references online to Highlanders calling Lowland Scots "Sassenach", but that appears to be an insult derived from the implication that they kind of might as well be English. I can't find any old reference to this at all, although the OED does have a quote from 1771 referring to the people of "the low country" as "Sassenachs". However, at the time, the term "low country" referred to areas which were then part of England. Maybe they were populated by Saxons. I can't find enough about this quickly, and suspect it would take a lot more research than just Googling in any case!

What I'm left wondering is how recent the application of the term to Lowland Scots is. That, I can't find. I suspect that I haven't come across it before because I'm not a Lowland Scot, being from Wales 'n' all.
bwat
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Woodwind and brass player. Interested in jazz and folk music. I'm here for the flute discussions. I really can't think of anything else to report and I have to pad this out to at least 1000 characters.

Re: Convert!

Post by bwat »

benhall.1 wrote: Now, since you mentioned it, I've looked and found references online to Highlanders calling Lowland Scots "Sassenach", but that appears to be an insult derived from the implication that they kind of might as well be English. I can't find any old reference to this at all, although the OED does have a quote from 1771 referring to the people of "the low country" as "Sassenachs". However, at the time, the term "low country" referred to areas which were then part of England. Maybe they were populated by Saxons. I can't find enough about this quickly, and suspect it would take a lot more research than just Googling in any case!

What I'm left wondering is how recent the application of the term to Lowland Scots is. That, I can't find. I suspect that I haven't come across it before because I'm not a Lowland Scot, being from Wales 'n' all.
Modern usage, well I don't know what the kids would say about it, so a middle aged man's 'modern' usage is: I call them teuchters and thay call me a sassenach. I'm a lowland Scot. BTW I mean no offecnce and take none with regards to these words.

Historical usage, well I bow out there.
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Convert!

Post by pancelticpiper »

PB+J wrote: Key signature was literally and completely irrelevant to their musical practice.
An illiterate person still uses pronunciation, vocabulary, and grammar. All of these things are necessary to their practice of language.

They just can't read.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Convert!

Post by pancelticpiper »

Mr.Gumby wrote: Older collections often made some claims about their settings, perhaps not claiming perfection or being definitive but even as early as O'Farrell you can find the claim 'tunes, set in proper style and taste'.
That was a time when people were forming committees to "ascertain and fix" the English language. There was an attitude that experts should establish the "correct" ways to do things.
Mr.Gumby wrote: Did Levey get the key signature completely wrong or did subsequent readers who played from the printed version in D?
That reminds me about the very good Scottish fiddler, who was an excellent sightreader. One day she was reading through an 18th century Scottish collection.

She was playing beautiful Strathspey after beautiful Strathspey in A minor, page after page. (The tunes were sorted by key.)

At some point she says "Hey! These are all in A Major!"

Yes at one point in the book the tunes went from A minor to A Major, but she kept reading everything in minor! (The tunes were improved, in my opinion.)

In like manner, the tune you showed is written in D...D minor. It would be easy enough for somebody who could recognize dots yet not understand key signatures to read that tune as if it were in D Major.

The accidentals at the beginning of the second part tell us that the key signature of one flat wasn't a slip of the pen.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
Post Reply