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 Post subject: Convert!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 5:00 pm 
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I'm learning, "Jump At The Sun" for which I have the dots in Bb. I'm playing it on a D whistle and it sounds fine to me. Does the whistle transpose like this, which is my understanding, or should I tweak the tune?

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 5:14 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
I'm learning, "Jump At The Sun" for which I have the dots in Bb. I'm playing it on a D whistle and it sounds fine to me. Does the whistle transpose like this, which is my understanding, or should I tweak the tune?

You definitely don't have the "dots in Bb". It's commonly written in D minor, with one flat in the key signature. Is that what you meant? Whatever key you play it in, it's not the easiest on whistle. What fingering are you using? As in, what holes do you cover for the first note of the tune?

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 5:54 pm 
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I just looked at the sheet music, I would play it on a C whistle.

If writing it out I would move everything up one full step, in E minor instead of D minor.

All those G#'s are now Bb's, and many whistles will do

xox xxx

for Bb nicely.

Now, on uilleann pipes if you put it up in A minor you have the sharp 4th built in, because you have a tone-hole for D#.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:10 pm 
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@Ben Yes, Dm that was sloppy on my part. The tune begins on a low D, so al hole covered on a D whistle. I went back to The Session site and found it in G, one sharp, which in a casual run through I like very well though it is a different version in the second part than Dm.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:15 am 
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Michael w6 wrote:
@Ben Yes, Dm that was sloppy on my part. The tune begins on a low D, so al hole covered on a D whistle. I went back to The Session site and found it in G, one sharp, which in a casual run through I like very well though it is a different version in the second part than Dm.

The one with one sharp is in E minor, not G.

I'm still curious how you were able to get much at all of the tune if you were playing it in D minor on a D whistle. :-? It's nearly impossible, IMO, in D minor on a D whistle. If you play it in E minor on a D whistle, it's doable, but I still wouldn't say it's the easiest tune. It's pretty distinctively English, by the way - were you going for expanding your cultural palette? Just curious ...

The second part doesn't have to be different in the E minor version from the D minor version, but I guess you're just taking various people's versions as notated on the session.org. I'd be very wary of those. Some of them are a bit bizarre - some may even say, wrong. Personally, since it's a composed tune, I'd go back as closely as possible to the source. Try this for instance, at about 7:02.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:14 am 
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@Ben - I'm new to this endeavor and do not know much of the musicology terminology so my references to keys may be wrong. The version I've been using is version 1 on The Sessions page though yesterday I reviewed them and found a version with one sharp which I quite like and the A and B parts seem to tie together a bit more smoothly than the first version.

And yes to the cultural palette. I especially like Brenton and Renaissance pieces. I heard "Jump" on a YT post and liked it.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:27 am 
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The trouble is that key signature doesn't tell you what the tonal centre of a tune is. I suppose at least it gives you a range of possibilities.

So in the key signature of one sharp you'll find Irish tunes in

D Mixolydian
E minor
G Major
A dorian
C Lydian

In other words five different tonal centres.

Did I miss any?

About transposing, it's confusing for many people but it's logical in its own strange way.

So a tune appears to be in D minor, having the scale of D E F G A Bb C d

Playing the F naturals and B flats are awkward on a D whistle, but right under the fingers on a C whistle.

Since a C whistle is one full step lower than a D whistle, you have to transpose the sheet music one full step higher.

So the D minor tune is now written in E minor, that B flat is now a C natural, in the written music.

But when you perform the tune on a C whistle the tune is restored to its original key, D minor.

It's the great thing about whistles: they're inexpensive and portable, so you can buy a load of them and carry them all with you, and be ready to transpose to a great many different keys.

An example just happened to me: I learned a tune in G major (The Galway Rambler) I went on YouTube to practice it along with a fiddler, but he plays it in D Major. Did I have to re-learn the tune to play along? Not at all! I just picked up an A whistle and was in the right key for playing with the fiddler.

Why? Because the note that's G on a D whistle

xxx ooo

is D on an A whistle.

In like manner I learned The Gravel Walk in A minor, but sometimes people play it in D minor. To a fiddler it's just moving the tune one string down, they can use the same fingering.

I likewise can use my normal fingering, playing it in A minor, but play it on a G whistle so it comes out in D minor.

xxo ooo

is A on a D whistle, but D on a G whistle.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:54 am 
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Michael w6 wrote:
And yes to the cultural palette. I especially like Brenton and Renaissance pieces.

Sorry, I'm really not being awkward. I know, just know, without thinking, what key a piece is in, so if someone says it's in a different key from the one I know it's in, I get confused. Also, what does "Brenton" mean?

Oh, by the way, don't use version one on the session.org - it's wrong, especially in bar 4. Version 2 is way better. It was posted by someone who is a very good musician (not me). Version 3 is fine, but in a different key altogether (G minor), and very awkward on most common keys of whistle. Version 4 is OK, except that it has the wrong key signature. Version 5 is just plain wrong. I was going to go through the rest, but most of them are wrong. I'd say version 15 is probably your best bet, being basically just like version 2, only transposed into E minor, so fitting better on a D whistle. Was that the one you were using?

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 1:09 pm 
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Breton + typo = Brenton :wink:

Best wishes.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Steve Bliven wrote:
Breton + typo = Brenton :wink:

Best wishes.

Steve

Is it? Oh. Ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:46 pm 
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Yes, typo. It was very early in the morning and I was soon off to work so I did not proof read. Or maybe Alien Hand Syndrome.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:39 pm 
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@Ben - I went back to The Session and printed version 15. I printed version 8 yesterday and quite like them both. The B part of these versions go well with their respective A part. The B part of the first version is somewhat an awkward transition from A.

I liked the link you enclosed but 7:02? The first link only goes to 5:50.

Here is were I first heard Jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btEpAqB7BFE

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 1:00 am 
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Michael w6 wrote:
@Ben - I went back to The Session and printed version 15. I printed version 8 yesterday and quite like them both. The B part of these versions go well with their respective A part. The B part of the first version is somewhat an awkward transition from A.

Version 8 is OK, except that bars 4, 8 and 16 are wrong.

Michael w6 wrote:
I liked the link you enclosed but 7:02? The first link only goes to 5:50.

I don't understand that. I wonder if it's a country thing, i.e. foreshortened outside the UK? When I click the link, the video goes to 8:43.

Michael w6 wrote:
Here is were I first heard Jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btEpAqB7BFE

Yes-s-s-s ... it sounds like that chap has learnt the tune from the dots of one of the versions on the session.org - sadly, one of the wrong ones. I see he's playing a C whistle. So he's using one of the versions written in E minor on the session.org. It sounds like he also has chosen version 8. Shame he didn't choose 15. Or, better yet, listen to John Kirkpatrick playing it. He did write it, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 4:09 am 
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Steve Bliven wrote:
Breton + typo = Brenton.

benhall.1 wrote:
Is it? Oh. Ok.

Oh, I was sure, as a Moderator, you knew. My fear was that somewhere in the darkest corners of Chiffdom there was some poor, misguided soul (maybe Old Wizz Post) plaintively singing, "Rule Brentonia..."

Best wishes.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Convert!
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:56 am 
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Steve Bliven wrote:
Steve Bliven wrote:
Breton + typo = Brenton.

benhall.1 wrote:
Is it? Oh. Ok.

Oh, I was sure, as a Moderator, you knew. My fear was that somewhere in the darkest corners of Chiffdom there was some poor, misguided soul (maybe Old Wizz Post) plaintively singing, "Rule Brentonia..."

Best wishes.

Steve

I genuinely do have trouble reading and understanding things like this. It's why, nearly four years ago ( :o ), I started my thread, Can't read it wrong. I think it has something to do with the fact that I don't like to make assumptions. Sometimes, just asking the question has meant that I've learned something that I didn't already know. I just learnt the other day, for instance, that the word "livable" is simply the American spelling of the word "liveable". I didn't know that. I had been labouring under the misapprehension that it must be a different word - one which I just didn't know. (By the way, for a while, the same thing happened with "aluminum".)

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