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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:57 am 
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I have to wonder if pressure from the states to bury recollections of the civil war had an effect on Ireland: tourists want thatched cottages, not bitter grudges. Ireland should be wealthy enough now to tell the states to feck off.


Not related to the civil war but a while ago it was discovered tha Ernesto 'Che' Guevarra landed in Shannon during the sixties, had his plane delayed by fog and, with the rest of the passengers of the flight, was put up in a hotel in Kilkee for the night. Ofcourse, a famous person staying in a place is something that can be milked and a large mural of Jim Fitzpatrick's iconic portrait of the man went up as a mural on the sea wall. American tourists complained and the council had it painted over promptly. Big protests followed and a whole new series of murals went up all over the town (spent the last twenty minutes trying to locate the photos but couldn't bring them up, maybe later), which were allowed to stay.

American tourist have also been known to complain people serving them in pubs and restaurants were, god forbid, Eastern European. Not the 'real' Irish experience, they felt. Well, guess what? It is. Get used to it. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:27 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
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I have to wonder if pressure from the states to bury recollections of the civil war had an effect on Ireland: tourists want thatched cottages, not bitter grudges. Ireland should be wealthy enough now to tell the states to feck off.


Not related to the civil war but a while ago it was discovered tha Ernesto 'Che' Guevarra landed in Shannon during the sixties, had his plane delayed by fog and, with the rest of the passengers of the flight, was put up in a hotel in Kilkee for the night. Ofcourse, a famous person staying in a place is something that can be milked and a large mural of Jim Fitzpatrick's iconic portrait of the man went up as a mural on the sea wall. American tourists complained and the council had it painted over promptly. Big protests followed and a whole new series of murals went up all over the town (spent the last twenty minutes trying to locate the photos but couldn't bring them up, maybe later), which were allowed to stay.

American tourist have also been known to complain people serving them in pubs and restaurants were, god forbid, Eastern European. Not the 'real' Irish experience, they felt. Well, guess what? It is. Get used to it. :P

I wonder if any of those who complained
about the image were Cuban Americans
whose families were treated so kindly by
Che and Fidel?

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:35 am 
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Know where you're coming from, but skating near the edge here folks ...

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:41 am 
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oleorezinator wrote:
I wonder if any of those who complained
about the image were Cuban Americans
whose families were treated so kindly by
Che and Fidel?


Not endorsing any particular political position here, but there are probably tourists from England offended by statues of Collins, or other republicans whose actions resulted in the deaths of british soldiers. People are probably offended by the statue of Jim Larkin, socialist trades unionist, right there on O'Connell st. in Dublin. I'll bet the Oscar Wilde statue in Merrion square annoys some people.

My point was that Ireland ought to be able to commemorate its own history as it pleases, without pandering to the sensibilities of Yanks. Travel abroad is often described as "broadening,"and that could include alternative political ideals. Most Irish American have no idea whatsoever that there was an Irish Civil war, and only a vague idea of the Easter rising and its consequences


Last edited by PB+J on Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:07 pm 
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Ah but sure, Che's father was a Lynch so he's almost a local man anyway :P

He's been here, he's famous, let's turn it into an annual festival!

Image

Seriously though, here's the original offending mural (not my pic):

Image

The people taking offence only triggered a pushback that resulted in a lot more images going up, and a festival. Which was the locals' way of telling them interference was not appreciated.

In 2017,unrelated to this, An post did their thing and brought out a stamp:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:05 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
I have to wonder if pressure from the states to bury recollections of the civil war had an effect on Ireland: tourists want thatched cottages, not bitter grudges. Ireland should be wealthy enough now to tell the states to feck off.
American tourists complained and the council had it painted over promptly. Big protests followed and a whole new series of murals went up all over the town (spent the last twenty minutes trying to locate the photos but couldn't bring them up, maybe later), which were allowed to stay.

American tourist have also been known to complain people serving them in pubs and restaurants were, god forbid, Eastern European. Not the 'real' Irish experience, they felt. Well, guess what? It is. Get used to it. :P

In regard to telling the U.S. dollars to fuqq off,
since the image was removed it would seem that
the cash won again.
As for the non native servers in Ireland, about
10 years ago the same complaint came from the
mouth of a well known traditional Irish musician
that I was talking to. Specifically not being able
to ask the hotel staff where the best place for
breakfast was when his band was on tour.
Back to Che. There are more Americans who
wouldn’t have a clue who he was. It’s far more
likely that they would have seen his image on
a t-shirt than in a history book or biography.

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:12 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
The US of course has its own bitter history--where I sit was once Indian land ...

Not to belabor the obvious, but everywhere in the US was once Indian land. It doesn't matter where you sit.

Within the native community, "Indian country" has taken on a new and broader meaning: even if you use it to refer to the rez, the term now means not real estate so much as it does the existential. It's become a metonym for the Native American population, experience, and context. So for my part, whenever I'm seated next to a Native American, I'm in Indian country. I think it's a healthy perspective.

I'm willing to bet that there's not a scrap of Earth that human conflict hasn't touched and left bitter memory. This isn't to brush it aside; it's to point out that for all our vaunted ideals, we still continue to be a tragic race.

oleorezinator wrote:
Back to Che. There are more Americans who
wouldn’t have a clue who he was. It’s far more
likely that they would have seen his image on
a t-shirt than in a history book or biography.

You got that right. :lol:

benhall.1 wrote:
Know where you're coming from, but skating near the edge here folks ...

But it's so exhilarating and heady. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:21 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
...but there are probably tourists from England offended by statues of Collins, or other republicans whose actions resulted in the deaths of british soldiers.
How probable? As probable as tourists from England to the USA being offended by statues of George Washington?


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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:47 pm 
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david_h wrote:
PB+J wrote:
...but there are probably tourists from England offended by statues of Collins, or other republicans whose actions resulted in the deaths of british soldiers.
How probable? As probable as tourists from England to the USA being offended by statues of George Washington?



Well over a 100 years difference between the two events. My grandfather remembered WWI, though he was only ten. Generally the intensity of feeling fades with time. I seem to remember some of those big country houses got destroyed. Wikipedia tells us that "At least 76 country mansions were destroyed in the War of Independence; 30 "Big Houses" were burned in 1920 and another 46 in the first half of 1921, mostly in the conflict's Munster heartland." Seems plausible that some people might be bitter about that. But hey I might be totally wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:56 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
david_h wrote:
PB+J wrote:
...but there are probably tourists from England offended by statues of Collins, or other republicans whose actions resulted in the deaths of british soldiers.
How probable? As probable as tourists from England to the USA being offended by statues of George Washington?

Well over a100 years difference between the two events. My grandfather remembered WWI. Generally the intensity of feeling fades with time. But hey I might be totally wrong.

Pfft. Grandad remembering WWI is nothing. There used to be a Yank member here for whom the Revolutionary war was still on, to his thinking. Didn't get on too well with our British Chiffers, as you can imagine.

(Posted this after your edit, PB+J, but I'll leave it as it stands, as it speaks more directly to what I had to say.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:32 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
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Pfft. Grandad remembering WWI is nothing. There used to be a Yank member here for whom the Revolutionary war was still on, to his thinking. Didn't get on too well with our British Chiffers, as you can imagine.
Ahhhh, the good ol’ days....... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:35 am 
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PB+J wrote:
... Generally the intensity of feeling fades with time. I seem to remember some of those big country houses got destroyed.
So soon after the losses of WW1 I doubt Ireland raised much intensity of feeling for the common man. Big country houses were of another time, in the UK also - many of them (like the Anglo-Irish one I mentioned up this thread) were demolished as unsustainable by the 1950s.

So far as Ireland is concerned I suspect that for most English people events in living memory have pushed the early 20C into history. And for an English tourist in Ireland the important bits of that go 100-200 years back beyond your Revolutionary War.

Was painting over Che a commercial decision, to protect the tourist industry?


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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:41 am 
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Was painting over Che a commercial decision, to protect the tourist industry?


It was a typical kneejerk reaction by some county council members: 'mustn't upset the yanks' . But as I made clear, there was a considerable pushback and Fitzpatrick's graphic of Guevarra can be found all over the town since.

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:21 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
American tourist have also been known to complain people serving them in pubs and restaurants were, god forbid, Eastern European. Not the 'real' Irish experience, they felt. Well, guess what? It is. Get used to it. :P


They were probably thinking it was too much like being home.

Especially in areas that are busy in the summer, most of the servers are central/eastern European. I visit the coast of Maine every summer, and there have been places that couldn't open in the last couple of years because of the scale back of temporary work visas.

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 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:23 am 
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Perhaps time to bend this slowly back to anywhere near its original subject or something more historical anyway. I'll be totally self indulgent and post a few more pics. :o

Another, more recent pile of stone sitting in the middle of a field. What's left of a big house, can't think right now what the story is, whether it was burned or otherwise demolished. Acted as an auxiliary workhouse during the famine (see the Garrett Barry book, if you're into that sort of thing). There are still deposits of empty shells there along the edge of the ocean, food used by the inmates at the time.

Image


And more of the big houses, Lady Gregory's pigeon coop at Coole:

Image


The state acquired the house and promptly sold off the contents and had the thing demolished, without any regard for Lady Gregory and her circle's contribution to the culture and the revolution. Some of the outbuildings and the parkland remain (and the wild swans, ofcourse) but of the house just an outline was left. Great place to go for walks and see a few mature trees though.

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