It is currently Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:32 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:24 pm
Posts: 229
I'm looking for the name of a constructed mound in Ireland with a vertical opening in the front. During the solstice or equinox the sunlight illuminates a series of notches inside the mound. I came across this awhile ago and want to find out more but cannot recall the name.

_________________
A moment of carelessness, a lifetime of regret.
A lifetime of carelessness, a moment of regret.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:17 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 35992
Location: Among the pixels
I do believe you're looking for Newgrange.

Image

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:24 pm
Posts: 229
Ah! Yes this is it. Have you been there?

_________________
A moment of carelessness, a lifetime of regret.
A lifetime of carelessness, a moment of regret.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:27 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 35992
Location: Among the pixels
Michael w6 wrote:
Ah! Yes this is it. Have you been there?

Not yet, although it's on my probably-never-to-be-realized bucket list. Impressive as it is, the restoration's a bit controversial among the archaeological community, though: when work began on it, it was in such a state that there was no real way of knowing how the exterior of the mound proper might have looked originally, so today's façade is unlikely to be representative of how things would have been - but then the restorer had to do something with all those rocks, so there's always going to be someone to take issue no matter how you go about it. Quoting Wikipedia: "Neil Oliver described the reconstruction as 'a bit brutal, a bit overdone, kind of like Stalin does the Stone Age'". Be that as it may, it certainly does a good job at being a crowd pleaser.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 7593
Location: East Coast US
I went a couple of decades ago, but in June, so no winter solstice. I loved it, but it might not be for everybody. I would think anyone into archaeology/antiquity would be into it. There are all sorts of neat things in Ireland on a smaller scale, dolmens, beehive huts, stone circles. . .

_________________
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
One cat short of crazy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:23 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 35992
Location: Among the pixels
chas wrote:
I went a couple of decades ago, but in June, so no winter solstice.

Were you allowed inside?

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:24 pm
Posts: 229
I did not know its current appearance is a reconstruction.

_________________
A moment of carelessness, a lifetime of regret.
A lifetime of carelessness, a moment of regret.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:33 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 35992
Location: Among the pixels
Michael w6 wrote:
I did not know its current appearance is a reconstruction.

Yes, apparently it was an utter shambles before. The mound itself and its site are original and intact, but while the white façade is certainly built from material that is genuinely part of the site and was unquestionably used in some way, it is alone in that its present form is all speculation. There wasn't a lot of choice about that.

My philosophy is that things get rebuilt. For whatever reason, sometimes they're given a new appearance in the process, so it's not as if Newgrange is in any way a fake; it was simply restored with the materials at hand, and educated guesses had to do the rest. Modern Ireland is its keeper now, and as such the restoration is fine by me; how does one bemoan the loss of "authenticity" when there's nothing to draw on other than rocks lying around? Rather, the restoration represents something of the cultural hopes and dreams of the people who did it, and it's also an attempt to restore and maintain a link with the past as best as can be done. That's appropriate, I think. It's more respectful, too; better to use everything there than to throw away what only leaves you guessing.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 995
Nanohedron wrote:
Michael w6 wrote:
I did not know its current appearance is a reconstruction.

Yes, apparently it was an utter shambles before. The mound itself and its site are original and intact, but while the white façade is certainly built from material that is genuinely part of the site and was unquestionably used in some way, it is alone in that its present form is all speculation. There wasn't a lot of choice about that.

My philosophy is that things get rebuilt. For whatever reason, sometimes they're given a new appearance in the process, so it's not as if Newgrange is in any way a fake; it was simply restored with the materials at hand, and educated guesses had to do the rest. Modern Ireland is its keeper now, and as such the restoration is fine by me; how does one bemoan the loss of "authenticity" when there's nothing to draw on other than rocks lying around? Rather, the restoration represents something of the cultural hopes and dreams of the people who did it, and it's also an attempt to restore and maintain a link with the past as best as can be done. That's appropriate, I think. It's more respectful, too; better to use everything there than to throw away what only leaves you guessing.



I'm going to disagree here. It would have been better to leave it as "a shambles" because in the decades since the restoration a number of technologies have appeared which would have added greatly to our knowledge of the people who built it and its function in their time. Ground penetrating radar, magnetic resonance imaging, LIDAR, Drone surveys--a whole bunch of technologies that would have made it possible to glean more info about the site in a non destructive way. Just a couple years ago the drought revealed evidence of unknown "henges" right nearby. But the reconstruction, while it created a compelling tourist site, destroyed a lot of information.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5491
Location: the Back of Beyond
It's a dilemma, I am not sure leaving things that aren't well buried will guarantee preservation, this is Ireland. There are plenty of examples of stuff that was left that just disappeared. There's a lot of stone in those things that can be used to build sheds, walls or just sold off. And it will. Farmers clear fields to be rid of things: I know a man who works for the Ordnanace Survey, at some point he told me about a place that had several dolmen, sousterrains and a ringfort. When they came back for a new survey a few years after the first visit, it was all gone.

Half a mile up the valley from where I live is a stone circle, Westropp gave a description of it, there's two stones left today, the rest were used by a neighbour, fencing etc.

Most of the big wellknown Cahers/ringforts are 19th century reconstructions, a lot of work was done during the Victorian age. There's another one in the Burren I know fairly well, Cahercommaun, the office of public works have been recornstructing there, a lot of work done some fifteen years ago (that one was well documented by a Harvard team during the earlier 20th century). But I know of several others that are just circular piles of stone, rubble mounts.

There's a lot of that sort of stuff around here, sitting in the middle of fields. If you're into that sort of thing, get a copy of Carleton Jones' book on the burren and Aran islands, ISBN 1-903464-61-7 (great armchair travelling for your lockdown)

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:04 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Mercia
I went to Ireland in about 1960, our family and some cousins. We stayed in Athlone. One day the contingent who were not into fishing went for a walk and noticed the map had 'Castle' marked a few miles down a track. After a long hot walk (it didn't rain the whole week we were there) we arrived and found two guys with a wheelbarrow, shovels and sledge hammers converting it into hardcore. One of the grown-ups, shocked, asked why they were knocking a castle down and got the answer "It's no use for anything". I recaall and a long hot walk back to the car and then cups of tea at a little house with a peat fire.

I think it was just a fallen down manorial pile from the late 1700s.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 995
The approach in most Asian cultures is famously to just keep continually rebuilding the temple and say it's been there for 1000 years, even though not a single stone or timber is original. It's a defensible approach, possibly a better approach.

When we were Ireland I went with our daughter to Knockma Hill in Galway where there are three stone...somethings on the top of the hill. We had to kind of bushwhack to find them, but more recent photos suggest the site's been cleared.

It was entirely unclear if there were neolithic sites or some Victorian gentleman's idea of a "folly." Or maybe both. Our daughter loved the site and indulged all her celtic mysticism/young adult fantasy novel impulses, but I kept wanting to see some professional assessment of what these things were.

When I was last in tralibane researching chief O'Neill I found some sites that he described were still there and others were not--either they were overgrown or people had cleared them away. There was supposedly an underground passage with niches in it, locally known as "the Dane's Fort." With some diligent searching I was able to find a little bit about it from a national archeological survey. It does seem as if Ireland has literally more of this stuff than it knows what to do with.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5491
Location: the Back of Beyond
The big forts on the Aran Islands are impressive but they are largely reconstructions. There are some areas in the Burren that have an incredible density of remains, from the bronze age right through the middle ages, the famine and the present day. I suppose the Office of Public Works (OPW) has a policy of preserving what is on public land and what is important but it's impossible to preserve and protect all of it. A lot of the big hilltop cairns in the Burren have never been examined closely. Other things that will pull a crowd are made accessible. The OPW finally managed to buy the land at Poulnabrone with The Dolmen (itself a part reconstruction) some fifteen years ago but a lot of this stuff is on private land.

Image

Quote:
Knockma Hill in Galway where there are three stone...somethings on the top of the hill.


Summit cairns I would guess. Queen Maebh's burial site?

A lot of hills have cairns, some old, some less so, often small ones are actually ordnance survey triangulation points.



All of the above pics were taken less than a hour (and some a lot less) away from where I am now writing this.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 995
Mr.Gumby wrote:

A lot of hills have cairns, some old, some less so, often small ones are actually ordnance survey triangulation points.


Yes there were ordnance survey markers up there. And three sites, one of which had an obviously modern (last two hundred years) stone column with a mounting point for something. The whole cairn looked like it had been reconstructed at some point.

It was still a marvelous view and one of our daughter's fondest memories of Ireland

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mound
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5491
Location: the Back of Beyond
They'd stick a metal rod in those while surveying, do their triangulation from the next points.

Sometimes it's hard to tell what's what. Not too far from here roadworkers dug up a few slabs of limestome, dug two in vertically and put the third on top as a cover stone. Doesn't look much different than the one in the first pic I posted (with the windpark in the background), you often see tourists stop to take pics.


There are various theories what the significance is of the prehistoric cairns. Some have been excavated and burials were found inside them, some think they may have been territorial markers of some sort. The one in the pic above is on Turlough Hill, which has a very large enclosure on its top, with a cairn, walls, and remains of many hut and house sites. Ofcourse the locals will tell you there were two witches on adjacent hills having a quarrel and throwing stones at eachother from one hill to the other, each ending up with a pile of stones on its top.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.145s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)