Flat C#, every other note seems good

[thePhotopiper]

Hey folks.

Im looking for some insight into an issue with my C#. I understand it is supposed to be slightly flat compared to some other notes according to this site http://www.upreeds.com/?q=content/tuning-0, however it's coming up at least twice, or even three times flatter than what that site suggests. But, every other note is coming up pretty close to the sites recommendation (and in tune with my drones).

I'm at a real loss to explain this and correct it. Any insight would be super helpful.

[deisman]

My c# always is off the tuner but sounds ok when I play. Have you tried more or less pressure on that note to see if affects tuning ?

[thePhotopiper]

My c# always is off the tuner but sounds ok when I play. Have you tried more or less pressure on that note to see if affects tuning ?

Yup. The pressure doesnt seem to make much of a difference. Also the back D is fine, which I know is greatly affected by pressure.

If it's fairly common to be so flat, perhaps im just not used to it? But I feel like this is a new thing. Although I've only recently started learning with drones... It sounds the worst with drones going.

[RenaissanceGuy]

If your ear tells you the note doesn't sit well on the drones, then your ear is probably right. With just intonation, the note is flatter than equal temperament because the equal temperament C# would be dissonant against the drones. But if the note is flattened too much, then you end up with the same problem in the other direction.

Have you tried placing the reed staple deeper into the reed seat to see if this sharpens the C# note until it sounds acceptable?
If this ends up sharpening other notes too much (it would affect the notes at the top more than the bottom), then you could flatten them with tape or rushes to compensate.

[PJ]

It not normal that C# is flat. C natural should be a little flat but not C#.

[thePhotopiper]

If your ear tells you the note doesn't sit well on the drones, then your ear is probably right. With just intonation, the note is flatter than equal temperament because the equal temperament C# would be dissonant against the drones. But if the note is flattened too much, then you end up with the same problem in the other direction.

Have you tried placing the reed staple deeper into the reed seat to see if this sharpens the C# note until it sounds acceptable?
If this ends up sharpening other notes too much (it would affect the notes at the top more than the bottom), then you could flatten them with tape or rushes to compensate.

Thanks for the info. I did try sinking the reed a wee bit before making this post, but not much. I'm thinking this may have to be my solution though so I will try it again today, tape the other notes and see what happens.

It's very odd, because this exact issue is happening with my SSPs. I've had to tape every hole except my C to get the damn thing in tune! Maybe it's just my office where I tune!?

[an seanduine]

If both kinds of pipes were going well, and now not so much, you might be experiencing what I call ´A great seasonal divide´.

Bob

[PeterF]

).

[PeterF]

Can somebody post the readings for C# and C natural from their set which is in harmony with the drones. This would be useful as there are conflicting readings in print.

[benhall.1]

It not normal that C# is flat. C natural should be a little flat but not C#.

This post confused me. Isn't a chanter tuned a little like a whistle, to be more or less, with some necessary compromises, in line with Just Intonation? In which case, compared with ET, the C# would be flat and the C nat would be sharp.

[PeterF]

I've checked my readings. Both the Tenor and Bass Regulators are set at C natural =0. When played with the Drones which are set at D=0 there is no warble so I think something between -10 to +5 may be ok for C natural on the Chanter. So between 0 and -10 for C# should be ok for the chanter, mine is -10. I think anything more than say -10 for C# might cause a warble and would sound flat. To fix a flat C# I would move the bridle up towards the eye for the reed and tape the back D, this will raise both C and D. There are other ways, but that's more complicated.

[rorybbellows]

These are the numbers as in Dave Hegartys book , if your chanter is playing at these pitches you will have a hive of honeyed sound.
Back D - even 0.00
C# - minus 11.73
C Nat. - minus 3.91
B - minus 15.64
A - plus 1.96
G - minus 1.96
F# - minus 13.69
E - plus 3.91
Bottom D - even 0.00"

RORY

[pudinka]

I've seen C nat. at -28 (or so) in a few books and I believe Mr. Woof said something similar here in the past. To my ears it gives a "sad" tone, but alternate fingerings on the low hand can move it to -4 or so, if it's a happy day.

Come to think of it, I've also seen the C nat. at +12...somewhere.

[PeterF]

Rory, thank you, this is what I was looking for.

Pudinka, I'm sure you know that a flat or varying C natural sounds good in some slow airs and is achieved by rolling the left forefinger off the C hole, going from low to high and gives the sad tone you mentioned.

[pancelticpiper]

Just a follow-up to Rory's post, I want to make it clear that these things aren't uilleann specific but are well-known and available numbers which come from the physics of acoustics.

Here is the entire breakdown

https://www.kylegann.com/Octave.html

I will say that the flat 7th/minor 7th (C natural) advocated by Hegarty there in Rory's post is only one of a number of C naturals you might hear being played by uilleann pipers (and by musicians of other instruments in other musics)

variation from Equal Temperament / cents above tonic / ratio / name
-31 / 969 / 7:4 / harmonic minor 7th (used in Blues and Highland piping)
-4 / 996 / 16:9 / darbari kanada raga tuning
+18 / 1017 / 9:5 / 5-limit Just Intonation

In Highland piping tastes have changed over the years, a half-century ago +18 was often heard, nowadays soloist and bands have settled at -31.

With the ratios, the lower the ratio numbers the more "in tune" it sounds to most people; beats disappear and you have a pure consonance. (We can't discount the possibility that notes beating against each other sound "in tune" to some people.)

So 7:4 will likely sound "more in tune" to most people than 16:9.

For C# (the Major 7th) what one usually hears is

-12 / 1088 / 15:8 / harmonic Major 7th