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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:03 am 
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Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Does anyone happen to have a Rudall and Rose original about the place, surplus to requirement? I'd be interested in buying, loaning, renting or swapping it for something else. Doesn't have to be in good condition, as long as the woodwork is whole and original. Restoration in return for a loan might be an option too. Open to suggestions.

Or, if you have such a flute and are able to take accurate bore measurements on demand, or have someone nearby who could, that might work too.

Respond here, PM or terry@mcgee-flutes.com....


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:16 am 
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My measurement skills are pretty bad, so would offer this flute and ship it to you if it is appealing. The email and your PM don't seem to work. (Email bounced, apologies if you got the message and I got a bogus bounce notice.)

This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. Plays at 440 for me with about 3/4" extension. There are repairs from long ago: (1) repaired headjoint crack through embouchure with replacement ebonite plug, and (2) tenon repair (silver band). It plays, though there seems to be looseness in one of the pads.

Pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzfwpqjo8l0o ... oUDfa?dl=0

L


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:49 am 
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LewisC wrote:
My measurement skills are pretty bad, so would offer this flute and ship it to you if it is appealing. The email and your PM don't seem to work. (Email bounced, apologies if you got the message and I got a bogus bounce notice.)

This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. Plays at 440 for me with about 3/4" extension. There are repairs from long ago: (1) repaired headjoint crack through embouchure with replacement ebonite plug, and (2) tenon repair (silver band). It plays, though there seems to be looseness in one of the pads.

Pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzfwpqjo8l0o ... oUDfa?dl=0

L

According to Steampacket's Rudall Register (http://steampacket.ownit.nu/Rudall%20Ro ... ister.html ), it appears to be # 4185, with a pewter Eb key, and the repairs/modifications you mentioned:
Quote:
Rudall & Rose no. 4185
E-Bay listing:
RUDALL & ROSE / N° 1 TAVISTOCK STREET / LONDON / 4185 - Here we have a very smart Rudall 8 keyed flute. It is currently with Chris Wilkes who has been restoring it to full playing condition. He informs me that is playing very well and will be completed before the conclusion of this auction. I have recently listed a number of my flutes on eBay and although regrettable that I am having to sell I've very much enjoyed my time playing them. Serial number 4185. Sold for 1.300 sterling, 22, January, 2014. (70)

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Last edited by kkrell on Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Oooow, extremely interesting, LewisC. So dating from around 1840, only about 13 years after the one Rockstro and Ellis measured, and still well before Carte and other influences on the company.

The repairs to the head are of no concern to our study, but the repairs to two tenons might be, as both my bore compression and Paddler's chambering theories both are focussed on the tenons. Is it possible to make out if the repaired tenons are original, or are they replacements? (I imagine that replacements might be rather newer looking.) Can you see any sign of a join if you look up and down through the bores?

And the purpose of the silver ring at the top of the LH section? Quite an unusual repair. Can we tell if it is to close a crack in that region, or to help secure a replacement top tenon? (Chris Wilkes - if you happen to be out there - please chime in if you can remember this instrument.)

Even if we have some concerns about the originality of two of the tenons, the flute might still fully satisfy our needs, by giving us the basic details needed for modelling, at whatever level of measurement precision we find necessary. We can then easily superimpose variations drawn from our many other sources upon it - some bore compression here, a chamber or two there, that kind of thing - to determine their impact.

We might need the flute for some time, as I imagine we'll want to go back to it to confirm and explore further as the modelling alerts us to new questions. Can you live with that?

Needless to say it will be returned in perfect condition with any leaking pads or other problems fixed!

Tunborough, what thinketh thee? A good starting place for the modelling study?

Incidentally, LewisC, I don't know what happened with my email address. I copied it and sent myself a test email and it worked fine.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:01 pm 
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Terry McGee wrote:
Tunborough, what thinketh thee? A good starting place for the modelling study?
Sounds like a fine place to start. Thank you, LewisC, for the offer.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:49 am 
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This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. LewisC


Looking now at your drop box photos I think the serial number is 4183. It definitely looks like the last digit is a 3, not a 5, so I'll update the register entry for R&R "4185" now, March 2nd, 2020, to R&R 4183.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:57 am 
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Sebastian Mayfield, a young English maker, measured several of my flutes a couple of years ago, including at least two R&Rs and my Boosey Pratten, I think. I don't have the results of his work, however. I wonder whether he might be willing to contribute data.... I've not had any recent contact, but will try to ask.

I don't have bore-measuring kit to do anything myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:59 am 
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Steampacket wrote:
Quote:
This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. LewisC


Looking now at your drop box photos I think the serial number is 4183. It definitely looks like the last digit is a 3, not a 5, so I'll update the register entry for R&R "4185" now, March 2nd, 2020, to R&R 4183.

Was the serial # not clear during the 2014 auction listed in your register?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:16 am 
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Sebastian has very generously shared the data he took for my longest-owned Rudall & Rose, #4683 (made c1843) and also of Rudall Carte #6845 (made c1881-2, which I sold to a chap in Australia a few years ago - a photo-story of its restoration with useful information can be seen here: https://m.facebook.com/jemtheflute/albu ... =bookmarks) as spreadsheets.

Sebastian comments: "Here are a couple of files with bore data for your Rudalls, which you're welcome to share as you see fit. Unfortunately they're the other way round to make it easier for reamer-making but the graph should help a bit, and the data can always be reversed to give Z-zero at the large end if that makes sense."

I should add that the measurements were taken using graduated nylon discs of known diameters inserted into the bore on a depth-measuring device. Each data point obviously indicates the limit of careful, unforced insertion of each disc. No account or representation of any ovalling is recorded.


I've uploaded both Excel documents to my Box resources:
#4683 - https://app.box.com/s/axfnkp9bsnbz0c3ugypjx0ott2ejwg5c
#6845 - https://app.box.com/s/u8y56yl5fxvp0vfoo0f68maa2116or37

Sebastian also provided a comparative plot of the two bores as an image, also now in the Box folder: https://app.box.com/s/zowo7lgdlp9oo5c3ab51oqkohq0glyvw

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:19 am 
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For practical reasons, I think we'll need to ignore the presence of the second keyed F hole, leaving us with 13 holes to keep track of. Below is a draft list of the fingerings, where X is a tonehole covered by a finger or a key, and O is an open tonehole, either an absent finger or a pressed key. I got these fingerings from Jem Hammond's generic fingering chart; I expect there will be some changes when the flute is in-hand.

Code:
Keys     | | |   | | ||
         v v v   v v vv
C4      XXXXXX XXXXX XX
C#4     XXXXXX XXXXX XO
D4      XXXXXX XXXXX OO
Eb4     XXXXXX XXXXO OO
E4      XXXXXX XXXOO OO
F4      XXXXXX XXOOO OO
F#4     XXXXXX XOOOO OO
G4      XXXXXX OOXOO OO
G#4     XXXXXO OOXOO OO
A4      XXXXOX OOXOO OO
Bb4     XXXOOX OOXOO OO
B4      XXOXOX OOXOO OO
C5      XOOXOX OOXOO OO
C#5     OOOXOX OOXOO OO
D5      OXXXXX XXXXX OO
Eb5     OXXXXX XXXXO OO
E5      XXXXXX XXXOX OO
F5      XXXXXX XXOOO OO
F#5     XXXXXX XOOOO OO
G5      XXXXXX OOXOO OO
G#5     XXXXXO OOXOO OO
A5      XXXXOX OOXOO OO
Bb5     XXXOOX OOXOO OO
B5      XXOXOX OOXOO OO
C6      XXOXXX XXOOO OO
C#6     OXXXXX XOXOO OO
D6      OXXXXX OOXOO OO
Eb6     XXXXXO XXXXO OO
E6      XXXXOO XXXXO OO
F6      XXXOOX XXOOO OO
F#6     XXXOXX XOXXX OO
G6      XXOXXX OOXOX OO
G#6     OXOXXX OOXXO OO
A6      OXXXXX XXXOX OO
Bb6     OXXXOX XOXOX OO
B6      XXXOOX OOXXO OO
C7      XXOXXX OXXOX OO


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:36 am 
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jemtheflute wrote:
Sebastian has very generously shared the data he took for my longest-owned Rudall & Rose, #4683 (made c1843) and also of Rudall Carte #6845 (made c1881-2, which I sold to a chap in Australia a few years ago - a photo-story of its restoration with useful information can be seen here: https://m.facebook.com/jemtheflute/albu ... =bookmarks) as spreadsheets.
Is there any chance of getting measurements of the toneholes and embouchure hole for these flutes? We'd need size, position, and depth (wall thickness) for each hole, as well as the stopper position. Presumably, the headjoint is cylindrical; we'd need its diameter, too.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:43 am 
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Was the serial # not clear during the 2014 auction listed in your register? kkrell


No, I assumed that the written E-bay description, which I gave in the register, was correct when they gave the serial number as 4185. There were also four photos of the flute included with the description, of which only one photo was of the body of the flute, and there was not a good, or sharp, view of the serial number.

So when the buyer/owner of the flute writes that it is probably 4183, and has also presented much better dropbox photos of his flute it's quite clear that the last digit in the serial number is three not five. Check it out yourself.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:10 pm 
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Tunborough wrote:
Is there any chance of getting measurements of the toneholes and embouchure hole for these flutes? We'd need size, position, and depth (wall thickness) for each hole, as well as the stopper position. Presumably, the headjoint is cylindrical; we'd need its diameter, too.


I'm sure Sebastian took tone-hole placement and size measurements and probably headjoint internal diameters and embouchure dimensions too. I don't know about wall thicknesses in relation to the holes, or outside circumferences for joint profiles generally.

Yes, the heads are cylindrical. #4683 has a Patent Head, so stopper position varies according to slide extension. (I now use the Chris Wilkes head I had made for the flute with it). I'm pretty sure I'd have set #6845's stopper at around 20-21mm, but of course it could be adjusted to suit player and slide extension.

I'll point Sebastian to this further request and see if he can contribute anything more.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:43 pm 
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Hi Terry,

Would an excellently playing Rudall, Rose and Carte do? I have one that is in fantastic shape - just one very hairline crack 90 degrees in front of the embouchure. Grey tried it and except for the usual stuff needed it played excellently. I would be willing to part with it for $3500 USD. Details later (I just gpt in the door after being away all weekend).

Casey

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:12 pm 
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Hi Casey

I'd really like to get as close as we can to the one that Rockstro measured. I think he mentioned about 1828, which would be about RR 1000. But thanks for the offer!


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