Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
- Terry McGee
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Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Does anyone happen to have a Rudall and Rose original about the place, surplus to requirement? I'd be interested in buying, loaning, renting or swapping it for something else. Doesn't have to be in good condition, as long as the woodwork is whole and original. Restoration in return for a loan might be an option too. Open to suggestions.
Or, if you have such a flute and are able to take accurate bore measurements on demand, or have someone nearby who could, that might work too.
Respond here, PM or terry@mcgee-flutes.com....
Or, if you have such a flute and are able to take accurate bore measurements on demand, or have someone nearby who could, that might work too.
Respond here, PM or terry@mcgee-flutes.com....
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
My measurement skills are pretty bad, so would offer this flute and ship it to you if it is appealing. The email and your PM don't seem to work. (Email bounced, apologies if you got the message and I got a bogus bounce notice.)
This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. Plays at 440 for me with about 3/4" extension. There are repairs from long ago: (1) repaired headjoint crack through embouchure with replacement ebonite plug, and (2) tenon repair (silver band). It plays, though there seems to be looseness in one of the pads.
Pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzfwpqjo8l0o ... oUDfa?dl=0
L
This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. Plays at 440 for me with about 3/4" extension. There are repairs from long ago: (1) repaired headjoint crack through embouchure with replacement ebonite plug, and (2) tenon repair (silver band). It plays, though there seems to be looseness in one of the pads.
Pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzfwpqjo8l0o ... oUDfa?dl=0
L
- kkrell
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
According to Steampacket's Rudall Register (http://steampacket.ownit.nu/Rudall%20Ro ... ister.html ), it appears to be # 4185, with a pewter Eb key, and the repairs/modifications you mentioned:LewisC wrote:My measurement skills are pretty bad, so would offer this flute and ship it to you if it is appealing. The email and your PM don't seem to work. (Email bounced, apologies if you got the message and I got a bogus bounce notice.)
This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. Plays at 440 for me with about 3/4" extension. There are repairs from long ago: (1) repaired headjoint crack through embouchure with replacement ebonite plug, and (2) tenon repair (silver band). It plays, though there seems to be looseness in one of the pads.
Pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzfwpqjo8l0o ... oUDfa?dl=0
L
Rudall & Rose no. 4185
E-Bay listing:
RUDALL & ROSE / N° 1 TAVISTOCK STREET / LONDON / 4185 - Here we have a very smart Rudall 8 keyed flute. It is currently with Chris Wilkes who has been restoring it to full playing condition. He informs me that is playing very well and will be completed before the conclusion of this auction. I have recently listed a number of my flutes on eBay and although regrettable that I am having to sell I've very much enjoyed my time playing them. Serial number 4185. Sold for 1.300 sterling, 22, January, 2014. (70)
Last edited by kkrell on Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Terry McGee
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Oooow, extremely interesting, LewisC. So dating from around 1840, only about 13 years after the one Rockstro and Ellis measured, and still well before Carte and other influences on the company.
The repairs to the head are of no concern to our study, but the repairs to two tenons might be, as both my bore compression and Paddler's chambering theories both are focussed on the tenons. Is it possible to make out if the repaired tenons are original, or are they replacements? (I imagine that replacements might be rather newer looking.) Can you see any sign of a join if you look up and down through the bores?
And the purpose of the silver ring at the top of the LH section? Quite an unusual repair. Can we tell if it is to close a crack in that region, or to help secure a replacement top tenon? (Chris Wilkes - if you happen to be out there - please chime in if you can remember this instrument.)
Even if we have some concerns about the originality of two of the tenons, the flute might still fully satisfy our needs, by giving us the basic details needed for modelling, at whatever level of measurement precision we find necessary. We can then easily superimpose variations drawn from our many other sources upon it - some bore compression here, a chamber or two there, that kind of thing - to determine their impact.
We might need the flute for some time, as I imagine we'll want to go back to it to confirm and explore further as the modelling alerts us to new questions. Can you live with that?
Needless to say it will be returned in perfect condition with any leaking pads or other problems fixed!
Tunborough, what thinketh thee? A good starting place for the modelling study?
Incidentally, LewisC, I don't know what happened with my email address. I copied it and sent myself a test email and it worked fine.
The repairs to the head are of no concern to our study, but the repairs to two tenons might be, as both my bore compression and Paddler's chambering theories both are focussed on the tenons. Is it possible to make out if the repaired tenons are original, or are they replacements? (I imagine that replacements might be rather newer looking.) Can you see any sign of a join if you look up and down through the bores?
And the purpose of the silver ring at the top of the LH section? Quite an unusual repair. Can we tell if it is to close a crack in that region, or to help secure a replacement top tenon? (Chris Wilkes - if you happen to be out there - please chime in if you can remember this instrument.)
Even if we have some concerns about the originality of two of the tenons, the flute might still fully satisfy our needs, by giving us the basic details needed for modelling, at whatever level of measurement precision we find necessary. We can then easily superimpose variations drawn from our many other sources upon it - some bore compression here, a chamber or two there, that kind of thing - to determine their impact.
We might need the flute for some time, as I imagine we'll want to go back to it to confirm and explore further as the modelling alerts us to new questions. Can you live with that?
Needless to say it will be returned in perfect condition with any leaking pads or other problems fixed!
Tunborough, what thinketh thee? A good starting place for the modelling study?
Incidentally, LewisC, I don't know what happened with my email address. I copied it and sent myself a test email and it worked fine.
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Sounds like a fine place to start. Thank you, LewisC, for the offer.Terry McGee wrote:Tunborough, what thinketh thee? A good starting place for the modelling study?
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Looking now at your drop box photos I think the serial number is 4183. It definitely looks like the last digit is a 3, not a 5, so I'll update the register entry for R&R "4185" now, March 2nd, 2020, to R&R 4183.This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. LewisC
- jemtheflute
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Sebastian Mayfield, a young English maker, measured several of my flutes a couple of years ago, including at least two R&Rs and my Boosey Pratten, I think. I don't have the results of his work, however. I wonder whether he might be willing to contribute data.... I've not had any recent contact, but will try to ask.
I don't have bore-measuring kit to do anything myself.
I don't have bore-measuring kit to do anything myself.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
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- kkrell
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Was the serial # not clear during the 2014 auction listed in your register?Steampacket wrote:Looking now at your drop box photos I think the serial number is 4183. It definitely looks like the last digit is a 3, not a 5, so I'll update the register entry for R&R "4185" now, March 2nd, 2020, to R&R 4183.This flute is cocus and silver, probably #4183, though could be 4185, or similar. LewisC
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
https://www.worldtrad.org
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Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
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- jemtheflute
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Sebastian has very generously shared the data he took for my longest-owned Rudall & Rose, #4683 (made c1843) and also of Rudall Carte #6845 (made c1881-2, which I sold to a chap in Australia a few years ago - a photo-story of its restoration with useful information can be seen here: https://m.facebook.com/jemtheflute/albu ... =bookmarks) as spreadsheets.
Sebastian comments: "Here are a couple of files with bore data for your Rudalls, which you're welcome to share as you see fit. Unfortunately they're the other way round to make it easier for reamer-making but the graph should help a bit, and the data can always be reversed to give Z-zero at the large end if that makes sense."
I should add that the measurements were taken using graduated nylon discs of known diameters inserted into the bore on a depth-measuring device. Each data point obviously indicates the limit of careful, unforced insertion of each disc. No account or representation of any ovalling is recorded.
I've uploaded both Excel documents to my Box resources:
#4683 - https://app.box.com/s/axfnkp9bsnbz0c3ugypjx0ott2ejwg5c
#6845 - https://app.box.com/s/u8y56yl5fxvp0vfoo0f68maa2116or37
Sebastian also provided a comparative plot of the two bores as an image, also now in the Box folder: https://app.box.com/s/zowo7lgdlp9oo5c3ab51oqkohq0glyvw
Sebastian comments: "Here are a couple of files with bore data for your Rudalls, which you're welcome to share as you see fit. Unfortunately they're the other way round to make it easier for reamer-making but the graph should help a bit, and the data can always be reversed to give Z-zero at the large end if that makes sense."
I should add that the measurements were taken using graduated nylon discs of known diameters inserted into the bore on a depth-measuring device. Each data point obviously indicates the limit of careful, unforced insertion of each disc. No account or representation of any ovalling is recorded.
I've uploaded both Excel documents to my Box resources:
#4683 - https://app.box.com/s/axfnkp9bsnbz0c3ugypjx0ott2ejwg5c
#6845 - https://app.box.com/s/u8y56yl5fxvp0vfoo0f68maa2116or37
Sebastian also provided a comparative plot of the two bores as an image, also now in the Box folder: https://app.box.com/s/zowo7lgdlp9oo5c3ab51oqkohq0glyvw
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
For practical reasons, I think we'll need to ignore the presence of the second keyed F hole, leaving us with 13 holes to keep track of. Below is a draft list of the fingerings, where X is a tonehole covered by a finger or a key, and O is an open tonehole, either an absent finger or a pressed key. I got these fingerings from Jem Hammond's generic fingering chart; I expect there will be some changes when the flute is in-hand.
Code: Select all
Keys | | | | | ||
v v v v v vv
C4 XXXXXX XXXXX XX
C#4 XXXXXX XXXXX XO
D4 XXXXXX XXXXX OO
Eb4 XXXXXX XXXXO OO
E4 XXXXXX XXXOO OO
F4 XXXXXX XXOOO OO
F#4 XXXXXX XOOOO OO
G4 XXXXXX OOXOO OO
G#4 XXXXXO OOXOO OO
A4 XXXXOX OOXOO OO
Bb4 XXXOOX OOXOO OO
B4 XXOXOX OOXOO OO
C5 XOOXOX OOXOO OO
C#5 OOOXOX OOXOO OO
D5 OXXXXX XXXXX OO
Eb5 OXXXXX XXXXO OO
E5 XXXXXX XXXOX OO
F5 XXXXXX XXOOO OO
F#5 XXXXXX XOOOO OO
G5 XXXXXX OOXOO OO
G#5 XXXXXO OOXOO OO
A5 XXXXOX OOXOO OO
Bb5 XXXOOX OOXOO OO
B5 XXOXOX OOXOO OO
C6 XXOXXX XXOOO OO
C#6 OXXXXX XOXOO OO
D6 OXXXXX OOXOO OO
Eb6 XXXXXO XXXXO OO
E6 XXXXOO XXXXO OO
F6 XXXOOX XXOOO OO
F#6 XXXOXX XOXXX OO
G6 XXOXXX OOXOX OO
G#6 OXOXXX OOXXO OO
A6 OXXXXX XXXOX OO
Bb6 OXXXOX XOXOX OO
B6 XXXOOX OOXXO OO
C7 XXOXXX OXXOX OO
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Is there any chance of getting measurements of the toneholes and embouchure hole for these flutes? We'd need size, position, and depth (wall thickness) for each hole, as well as the stopper position. Presumably, the headjoint is cylindrical; we'd need its diameter, too.jemtheflute wrote:Sebastian has very generously shared the data he took for my longest-owned Rudall & Rose, #4683 (made c1843) and also of Rudall Carte #6845 (made c1881-2, which I sold to a chap in Australia a few years ago - a photo-story of its restoration with useful information can be seen here: https://m.facebook.com/jemtheflute/albu ... =bookmarks) as spreadsheets.
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
No, I assumed that the written E-bay description, which I gave in the register, was correct when they gave the serial number as 4185. There were also four photos of the flute included with the description, of which only one photo was of the body of the flute, and there was not a good, or sharp, view of the serial number.Was the serial # not clear during the 2014 auction listed in your register? kkrell
So when the buyer/owner of the flute writes that it is probably 4183, and has also presented much better dropbox photos of his flute it's quite clear that the last digit in the serial number is three not five. Check it out yourself.
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
I'm sure Sebastian took tone-hole placement and size measurements and probably headjoint internal diameters and embouchure dimensions too. I don't know about wall thicknesses in relation to the holes, or outside circumferences for joint profiles generally.Tunborough wrote:Is there any chance of getting measurements of the toneholes and embouchure hole for these flutes? We'd need size, position, and depth (wall thickness) for each hole, as well as the stopper position. Presumably, the headjoint is cylindrical; we'd need its diameter, too.
Yes, the heads are cylindrical. #4683 has a Patent Head, so stopper position varies according to slide extension. (I now use the Chris Wilkes head I had made for the flute with it). I'm pretty sure I'd have set #6845's stopper at around 20-21mm, but of course it could be adjusted to suit player and slide extension.
I'll point Sebastian to this further request and see if he can contribute anything more.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!
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- Casey Burns
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Hi Terry,
Would an excellently playing Rudall, Rose and Carte do? I have one that is in fantastic shape - just one very hairline crack 90 degrees in front of the embouchure. Grey tried it and except for the usual stuff needed it played excellently. I would be willing to part with it for $3500 USD. Details later (I just gpt in the door after being away all weekend).
Casey
Would an excellently playing Rudall, Rose and Carte do? I have one that is in fantastic shape - just one very hairline crack 90 degrees in front of the embouchure. Grey tried it and except for the usual stuff needed it played excellently. I would be willing to part with it for $3500 USD. Details later (I just gpt in the door after being away all weekend).
Casey
- Terry McGee
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Re: Rudall & Rose flute (or its data) needed....
Hi Casey
I'd really like to get as close as we can to the one that Rockstro measured. I think he mentioned about 1828, which would be about RR 1000. But thanks for the offer!
I'd really like to get as close as we can to the one that Rockstro measured. I think he mentioned about 1828, which would be about RR 1000. But thanks for the offer!