Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
jemtheflute
Posts: 6969
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: N.E. Wales, G.B.
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by jemtheflute »

I agree that the domed crown on the GH flute is not at all likely to be original and that so far as the catalogue photos show, the flute has had a relatively recent overhaul. There may also be some doubt about the enormous size of the R1 & R2 tone-holes and the rather dark honey colour of the wood may suggest it has been stained as part of modern work on it.

Regarding Uniflute's idea about checking threads on crown/stopper assemblies, I'm afraid that won't work because there is no standardisation - very few prove to be interchangeable (I've tried! ;-) ). The diameter of the threaded shaft is variable, as is the pitch of the thread. This is perhaps unsurprising as they are likely to have been individually hand turned, freehand, and the threads hand chased.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
User avatar
kkrell
Posts: 4831
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Mostly producer of the Wooden Flute Obsession 3-volume 6-CD 7-hour set of mostly player's choice of Irish tunes, played mostly solo, on mostly wooden flutes by approximately 120 different mostly highly-rated traditional flute players & are mostly...
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by kkrell »

jemtheflute wrote:There may also be some doubt about the enormous size of the R1 & R2 tone-holes and the rather dark honey colour of the wood may suggest it has been stained as part of modern work on it.
I notice discussion on this flute seems to have stopped, here & on the FB Flute Histoy group. While I've had some interest in a boxwood Rudall, this one isn't going to be it. I definitely distrust the size of those toneholes - I've never seen anything like that size, going all the way into the block in one instance. I have big hands, and not sure I could cover those even with piper's grip (also that block looks in the way). I think somebody carved them out, and I'm not thinking to any appropriate useful purpose. Wonder how the tuning is.
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
https://www.worldtrad.org
Flutesoftheforest
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:17 pm
antispam: No
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by Flutesoftheforest »

Good luck to all those who choose to , or not to, bid on this flute. All this speculation will either encourage or discourage bidders, who can tell? All it takes is for two people to really want the flute and then who knows where it will go. Since the "invention" of on line catalogues and bidding there are very few surprises nowadays. The international market will have it's way and I will sit back in wonderment!!!!!!!!
:o :o :o :o
User avatar
paddler
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:19 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Hood River, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by paddler »

kkrell wrote:
jemtheflute wrote:There may also be some doubt about the enormous size of the R1 & R2 tone-holes and the rather dark honey colour of the wood may suggest it has been stained as part of modern work on it.
I notice discussion on this flute seems to have stopped, here & on the FB Flute Histoy group. While I've had some interest in a boxwood Rudall, this one isn't going to be it. I definitely distrust the size of those toneholes - I've never seen anything like that size, going all the way into the block in one instance. I have big hands, and not sure I could cover those even with piper's grip (also that block looks in the way). I think somebody carved them out, and I'm not thinking to any appropriate useful purpose. Wonder how the tuning is.
The large tone holes and other features, including the domed cap, have me wondering if this is actually an F flute rather than a D flute. Has anyone seen the dimensions or verified that it is in fact a D flute?
User avatar
jemtheflute
Posts: 6969
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: N.E. Wales, G.B.
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by jemtheflute »

Sold for £2.5k hammer, so effectively £3k after commission. Roughly what I expected. I hope for the buyer's sake it's not been too mucked about!
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
Flutesoftheforest
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:17 pm
antispam: No
Location: Lancashire, UK

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by Flutesoftheforest »

So at least two bidders believed in it then! Well done the highest bidder.
:) :lol: :) :lol: :)
User avatar
radcliff
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:56 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: in two words, Rudall & Rose. but since a minimum of 100 characters is required, I should list a number of makers I found extremely interesting… I don't even know how much are 100 characters...
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow (Rome)

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by radcliff »

from my point of view it was a risky auction:
Its description was strictly skeleton plus the GH's staff was sloppy and their condition's report consist of only one extra picture, not even interesting!
Serial n. was taken wrong (is it 4364 ? ) even if easy readable.
Last, the flute seems equipped with Pisoni pads, I mean: if it was recently served, could the seller give us (or GH) more info ?
Few more details and, imho, the RR could have fetched £4K without general amazement.
Francesco - Rome, Italy
TransverseWoodenFlutes.com
User avatar
kkrell
Posts: 4831
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Mostly producer of the Wooden Flute Obsession 3-volume 6-CD 7-hour set of mostly player's choice of Irish tunes, played mostly solo, on mostly wooden flutes by approximately 120 different mostly highly-rated traditional flute players & are mostly...
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by kkrell »

radcliff wrote:from my point of view it was a risky auction:
Its description was strictly skeleton plus the GH's staff was sloppy and their condition's report consist of only one extra picture, not even interesting!
Serial n. was taken wrong (is it 4364 ? ) even if easy readable.
Last, the flute seems equipped with Pisoni pads, I mean: if it was recently served, could the seller give us (or GH) more info ?
Few more details and, imho, the RR could have fetched £4K without general amazement.
I received 12 pictures. Serial # does seem to be 4322.
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
https://www.worldtrad.org
Steampacket
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Sweden

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by Steampacket »

I also received 12 photos of the flute and the serial number is definitly 4322. The flute seems fine if you're a fan of boxwood. The crown should be easily sorted, and the R1 and R2 holes too if necessary. Jem how would the enlarged holes affect the tuning of the F# and E?.
User avatar
jemtheflute
Posts: 6969
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: N.E. Wales, G.B.
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by jemtheflute »

Steampacket wrote:I also received 12 photos of the flute and the serial number is definitly 4322. The flute seems fine if you're a fan of boxwood. The crown should be easily sorted, and the R1 and R2 holes too if necessary. Jem how would the enlarged holes affect the tuning of the F# and E?.
Well, E isn't affected - that's defined by the R3 tone-hole. If R1 & R2 have been enlarged, the (usually flat, even properly vented) F# and the G would obviously both be sharpened and strengthened and perhaps be brought more in line with the usually sharp A, but the relationship with the probably flat anyway D (and low C#/C) would be badly compromised and the whole balance of the tuning upset. That's partly why I had the enlarged holes (L2 and R2) on my #5099 bushed and recut by Chris Wilkes, though it was also to restore them up to the tube surface as some numpty had put a half-round file across them.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
Steampacket
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Sweden

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by Steampacket »

Well, E isn't affected - that's defined by the R3 tone-hole. If R1 & R2 have been enlarged, the (usually flat, even properly vented) F# and the G would obviously both be sharpened and strengthened and perhaps be brought more in line with the usually sharp A, but the relationship with the probably flat anyway D (and low C#/C) would be badly compromised and the whole balance of the tuning upset. That's partly why I had the enlarged holes (L2 and R2) on my #5099 bushed and recut by Chris Wilkes, though it was also to restore them up to the tube surface as some numpty had put a half-round file across them. Jem
Yes of course, my mistake, G and F#. What could it cost if the new owner wanted to to have the holes bushed and recut and a new crown with threaded cork adjuster made?
User avatar
gorjuswrex
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: England

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by gorjuswrex »

Strange the listing on the GH page shows it as 'unsold' now. I only looked at it today so don't know if it was different before.

https://bid.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/m/lo ... tured%3Dno
User avatar
jemtheflute
Posts: 6969
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: N.E. Wales, G.B.
Contact:

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by jemtheflute »

gorjuswrex wrote:Strange the listing on the GH page shows it as 'unsold' now. I only looked at it today so don't know if it was different before.

https://bid.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/m/lo ... tured%3Dno
I have received (privately) information that the sale was cancelled post-hammer, by GH, due to "issues" (with undisclosed modifications) coming to their attention.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads
User avatar
radcliff
Posts: 852
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:56 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: in two words, Rudall & Rose. but since a minimum of 100 characters is required, I should list a number of makers I found extremely interesting… I don't even know how much are 100 characters...
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow (Rome)

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by radcliff »

maybe they just found out that I did not recived the pictures I should! :P
Francesco - Rome, Italy
TransverseWoodenFlutes.com
tstermitz
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 10:18 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: Rudall & Rose 4322 in G&H auction

Post by tstermitz »

It did seem like the description was a little thin. G&H have handled other historic flutes, so they should provide (could have provided) confidence building information.
Post Reply