Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
ertwert
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by ertwert »

Hi, I just saw a post on thesession.org made by a music shop, advertising his/her flutes:

http://www.muzikhausberlin.de/flote.html
https://thesession.org/discussions/43868?

Does someone know anything about them? The prices are remarkable low and the product information is a bit odd
Last edited by ertwert on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Steve Bliven
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: Dartmouth, Massachusetts, USA

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Steve Bliven »

I would be somewhat cautious about the origin of these flutes. A quick read through the text includes the statement, "This Irish Flute comes from the South American nation..."

Either poor research or a very odd typo.

Best wishes.

Steve
Live your life so that, if it was a book, Florida would ban it.
User avatar
Julia Delaney
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:15 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I play fiddle, concertina, flute. I live in NH. Lived in Kilshanny, Co Clare, for about 20 years. Politically on the far left. Diet on the far right (plant-based fundamentalist). Musically in the middle of the pure drop.
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Contact:

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Julia Delaney »

This is what I wrote in answer to the poster on thesession.org, in response to someone inquiring about "a good flute."

The German shop mentioned sells flutes made in Pakistan. Doesn't mean that Pakistan-made are bad flutes -- but I haven't ever played one that I thought worth owning, even at $100.

I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.

http://www.irishflutestore.com is owned by an excellent fluter himself, and you can trust him. You might pay a bit more but it would be worth it to get a good flute. Both Solen Lesouef and Martin Doyle make great flutes. I would not hesitate to buy a flute from either of them.

Anybody seriously interested in buying a flute should go to http://www.chiffandfipple.com and see what's on offer at the Used Instrument Exchange part of the site. But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.
Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. The Internationale
PB+J
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a historian and the author of "The Beat Cop:Chicago's Chief O'Neill and the Creation of Irish Music," published by the University of Chicago in 2022. I live in Arlington VA and play the flute sincerely but not well

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by PB+J »

Julia Delaney wrote:This is what I wrote in answer to the poster on thesession.org, in response to someone inquiring about "a good flute."

The German shop mentioned sells flutes made in Pakistan. Doesn't mean that Pakistan-made are bad flutes -- but I haven't ever played one that I thought worth owning, even at $100.

I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.

http://www.irishflutestore.com is owned by an excellent fluter himself, and you can trust him. You might pay a bit more but it would be worth it to get a good flute. Both Solen Lesouef and Martin Doyle make great flutes. I would not hesitate to buy a flute from either of them.

Anybody seriously interested in buying a flute should go to http://www.chiffandfipple.com and see what's on offer at the Used Instrument Exchange part of the site. But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.

Ah TheSession.org, where smug goes to parade
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Nanohedron »

PB+J wrote:Ah TheSession.org, where smug goes to parade
Now, now. Let's take the high road and maintain at least a façade of cordial relations. I'll bet that like me, you've gone there to nick tunes. :poke:
Julia Delaney wrote:But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.
Oh, I don't know. There are perfectly knowledgeable people here who are ready and willing to cut through the blather. Perhaps yourself, for example.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by benhall.1 »

I just came here to post, essentially in warning about the flutes on sale at muzikhaus ...

... but Julia Delaney has said it all, and I have nothing to add.
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by benhall.1 »

Julia Delaney wrote:I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.
You commented on them a while ago. Having just looked at the flutes on their site, I'd say you were right then, and I'd agree with your assessment now - they're not cocus, and they probably are Pakistani in origin - and, personally, I'd rather get something, at whatever price, from someone whose work is respected, and is a known maker. There are some affordable flutes made by such people.
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Nanohedron »

benhall.1 wrote:... they're not cocus ...
A very reasonable conclusion, but is it possible we're looking at cocus sapwood rather than heartwood? It could account for both the price and the claim. It would be good to have a maker's input about this.

Just had another look at Muzikhaus, and their "Irish"-style flutes don't impress me at first glance. No idea how they play, but to me mismatched woods are a warning sign that quality is going to be a gamble at best. I recognize a number of their harps as being made by Mid-East Manufacturing, so I'm willing to guess that their flutes are, too.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by benhall.1 »

Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:... they're not cocus ...
A very reasonable conclusion, but is it possible we're looking at cocus sapwood rather than heartwood? It could account for both the price and the claim. It would be good to have a maker's input about this.
If they are indeed made in Pakistan, then I would have thought it's safe to say it's not any sort of cocuswood. Also, I've seen a fair few pieces of cocuswood. I've yet to see a pale yellow piece of cocuswood.
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Nanohedron »

benhall.1 wrote:I've yet to see a pale yellow piece of cocuswood.
Right, because the chocolaty-colored heartwood is the industry standard for wind instruments made of cocus, and that's what the knowledgeable musician would expect to see when that name is used. To us, "cocus" is synonymous with the heartwood. But what I'm wondering is whether these people are instead using cocus sapwood discards - someone else's, probably - and calling it "cocus" on the sheer technicality of it. While the wood in question could indeed really be anything, cocus sapwood is also yellowish like that. If it is the case that they're using cocus sapwood, I wouldn't deceive myself that it makes things any better; it would still be a bait-and-switch, but it's a slick one.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
an seanduine
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: just outside Xanadu

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by an seanduine »

I was always led to believe the Pakistani flutes were made from the sapwood of Sheesham, or Shissam wood. A form of Rosewood. However, the sapwood is not expensive nor durable. Shissam is sometimes called cocoa wood.

Bob
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Nanohedron »

an seanduine wrote:I was always led to believe the Pakistani flutes were made from the sapwood of Sheesham, or Shissam wood.
I had two Pakistani flutes (it was a callower time), and both were of blackwood, so they must actually use a variety of woods depending on whatever factors.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Terry McGee »

It seems unlikely that a flute could be made just of sapwood, as that normally only forms a relatively thin layer just under the bark and encasing the heartwood. I don't think I've ever seen sapwood layer thick enough to make a whole flute from. I have seen (and made) flutes with a flash of sapwood, which can be quite striking. But it's the dense core of the tree - the heartwood - we need.

My understanding is that the modern Pakistani flutes are made from Sheesham (Shisham), "North Indian Rosewood" (as opposed to Indian Rosewood, a finer timber). It is significantly lighter in density when compared to our timbers - around 0.75, which puts it more into the "hard furniture timber" class than "woodwind instrument" class. By comparison boxwood is around 0.95 - 1.0, Blackwood, Mopane and Australian Gidgee can be 1.2 - 1.3, and Delrin 1.4. A lighter timber seems to make a lighter-toned flute, sweet but not commanding, probably through a combination of less stiffness & more surface roughness. I don't know if the Pakistani companies bulk the timber chemically to offset this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Nanohedron »

Terry McGee wrote:It seems unlikely that a flute could be made just of sapwood, as that normally only forms a relatively thin layer just under the bark and encasing the heartwood. I don't think I've ever seen sapwood layer thick enough to make a whole flute from.
A quick Googling of cocus log images confirms this, so I'd say that settles it. But it's good to know for certain that we're looking at plain, old-fashioned 100% false advertising, pure and simple.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
Conical bore
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:12 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Pacific Northwest USA

Re: Experience with flutes made by this music shop?

Post by Conical bore »

Here's the kind of thing that led me to think that there's still some Cocus out there being sold as sapwood, based on the color:

https://dulcimershofar.com/irish-flute-cocus.html

Image

Maybe it's a different wood, and just using the Cocus name?
Post Reply