Bb bass Boosey Hawkes flute on ebay

[Thalatta]

Here, and looks good: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-ANTIQUE ... SwsNNdIk4B

[Peter Duggan]

High pitch (it says so)...

[Thalatta]

Like Matt Molloy's. His (on Shadows of Stone, etc) is slightly high pitch.

[Terry McGee]

Very interesting. Essentially a 6-key Siccama model (extension keys on L3 and R3). But what do we guess about the bore? Boehm's cylinder?

I imagine, unlike our more familiar conical bore flutes with their very long tuning slides, that integral tenon/slide won't provide a wide range of tuning. So it's possible the flute won't tune down to modern pitch before the head falls off. Hence the dire warning not to buy it if that's an issue.

[Casey Burns]

This looks like a great flute. Those extendo-keys are a good solution for the 3rd and 6th fingerholes. Without these holes end up being a little on the small side while the others end up being on the large side in order to make the entire thing reachable. I am working on a clever solution for this dilemma for a keyless version which I will attempt sometime in the fall, with the intention of going all the way down to the very useful key of low G. The disadvantage of these holes for Irish music is the inability to do finger vibrato and other articulation techniques, though players on the modern flutes like Joannie Madden have long overcome these limitations. I wish I could grab it but I have my knee replacement surgery bills! Good luck to whoever wins it!

Casey

[Casey Burns]

One thing I just noticed about this flute though - it looks cylindrical bored. That isn't a problem on these low flutes given the solution for the 3rd and 6th holes. Cylindrical bores tend to attenuate the volume less as well.

Casey

[Thalatta]

Ok, it sold for 510 GBP, and only two bids… I honestly thought a nice Bb would go for more than that, even high pitched!

[Terry McGee]

It was attractive in having the extended third fingers (Siccama's approach), which probably made the stretch not too bad for a Bb. But, how aggravating not being able to tune it down to modern pitch.

The added length needed to pull a high-pitch flute down to modern, and preferably a bit lower to allow our customary flexibility, is sometimes surprising. Look at this image of a Ball Beavon multikeyed cylinder flute I made a new (standard pitch) head for.



Annoyingly, the amount you need to pull these flutes out to get down to standard pitch is the same length as the tenon/slide arrangement is long. You just get it in tune and the head falls off. Grrrr.

But perhaps the weirdest thing is that, once you have found a way to get down to modern pitch, the overall tuning of the flute always seems to improve dramatically. How weird is that? I can only assume that when they went up to High Pitch in the 2nd half 19th century, they didn't bother to shorten the bodies. But then the bodies should have been set for pitches lower than 440. Perhaps they were already compromising between 430 and 450 and that's why we can play them at 440, even though that wasn't a pitch at the time! Aeolus moves in mysterious ways....

I look at some of these issues here: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/HighPitchCure.htm

I wonder what the new owner of the flute in question has in mind to do with it. If you're out there....

[Terry McGee]

Ah, just spotted an interesting and relevant comment in The Session, from "Oldpuffer":

"Hi, unless I’m much mistaken I sold this a few weeks ago on eBay for £200, it is not in modern pitch, so sharp of concert it is almost playable in B rather than Bb actually above the standard band flute pitch, as such though interesting it is hardly worth what the seller is now asking."

"almost playable in B rather than Bb". Let's look at the numbers. If we take Bb and sharpen it by 455/440 we get B-42 cents, marginally closer to B than Bb. Allow that the maker would have given the player say 3mm further sharpening and Oldpuffer is certainly right - we'll be at around B-30, much closer to B than Bb. This confirms the surprising amount more head length you need that I talked about above.

It would be interesting to hear a whole orchestra at 455 to see what attracted them to that pitch. We are often treated to early music at circa 415 or even Old French 390Hz, but I don't think I've ever heard any late Victorian era reproductions. Wouldn't cost much to outfit an entire orchestra with new instruments, would it......

[crackedfluteplayer]

Casey,
I regularly play a cylindrical bansuri in Bb and it is quite hard to get used to reaching the huge 6th fingerhole but it can be done. All I can say is it is a relief to go back to a D flute afterwards. Have you seen the keys on the Yamaha Venova saxophone. This has mostly open holes with a split key for Eb [open hole] and D. The 2 lower keys are also placed very elegantly I think.

[Terry McGee]

So this is the beast you're thinking of, "crackedfluteplayer"?



So, (if I understand correctly):
1. Press both halves (or just the back half) of R3 and you get D. Press just the driver's side touch and you get Eb.
2. Press the lower R4 and you get C#. Press the rear one (or both) and you get C. Boehm.
3. Leave the black plug in hole R2 and you get the German recorder fingering. Take it out and you get baroque recorder fingering.

I reckon point 1 has something to offer....

[flyingparchment]

what a fascinating instrument... it seems to be a cross between a simple-system saxophone and a recorder: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical ... oduct-tabs

according to the fingering chart, the split 6th hole key is used for several cross fingerings (as on a recorder) as well as the D and E-flat. from the fingering chart i would infer both sides of the key are open-standing, but that isn't very clear in the pictures. i think you could argue this is an improvement on Boehm's RH4 layout for fast passages involving Eb and C/C#.

[Casey Burns]

No Terry. I was thinking about something like Wormholes. Not the invertebrate kind but more like altering space/time.

[crackedfluteplayer]

I cant say I have played the Venova at a lot of sessions, but I have dragged it out of the bag a few times to play slower tunes.....Marches and slow waltzes etc. I think it sounds lovely and it is basically a soprano sax in C. Real antique melody C saxophones are notoriously out of tune and I dont think anyone is making them anymore. Playing tenor or alto sax at a session is just a pain, although of course, Noel Sweeney regularly plays tunes on the sax.
I just think that the keys on the Venova are very good and if there was something similar on a flute, there would be no need to ever hold down the Eb key because it is an open hole which can be closed along with the D key. Sorry,,,,,the Eb key is a bugbear of mine which is discussed on another thread of this forum.