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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:57 pm 
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For additional context on my word usage, my usual pressure to get lower octave A to be in tune results in my upper octave A being 35-40 cents flat. Similar pressures on my regular whistle of choice being 5 cents flat at the same pressure changes.

Sure, I can play it into tune as I'm sure many other people can (So yes, the word "unusable" was probably on the strong side), but I have no desire to when I have other whistles that I prefer and are better in-tune. I also do enough gigs where tuning matters quite a bit, so even though being perfect bang-on is not everyone's priority, it is definitely of importance for me.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:42 pm 
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so even though being perfect bang-on is not everyone's priority


Making assumptions there? :poke: I didn't see anyone here saying anything to suggest that.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:47 pm 
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Are you making the assumption that I was referring to anyone in this thread?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:56 pm 
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Interesting discussion. What Hans has built and suggested is basically a Fajardo wedge. A tapered flue (which is how I build my instruments) helps the player a lot to bring the pitches up in tune with ease in the second octave so flue design plays an important role.

I would also like to add that the intonation problem is inherent with cylindrical instruments and it is just what it is, but very interesting to see how wildly different the intonation can be when you compare different makers.

Here is my further thought's on the subject:

Whats the point in fine tuning the first octave on a whistle when a cylindrical instrument is inherently flat in the second octave? cylindrical instruments are known for being flat in the second octave forcing the player to push extra hard to bring the second octave notes up into tune. What I feel should be the standard way to fine tune an instrument is to get the second octave in tune and not worry too much about the first octave pitches. The main reason why I suggest concentrating on tuning the second octave is due to reasons of auditory Psychoacoustics which tell us that the human ear detects out of tune pitches better at higher frequencys. This means that lower notes can be flat without the ear noticing as much compared to higher notes. This will also result in more parity with regards to volume between both octaves.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:16 pm 
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jpwinstruments wrote:
Interesting discussion. What Hans has built and suggested is basically a Fajardo wedge. A tapered flue (which is how I build my instruments) helps the player a lot to bring the pitches up in tune with ease in the second octave so flue design plays an important role.
The cylindrical insert is actually quite different from a Fajardo wedge. In my experience, a wedge has to intrude quite a bit into the air stream to control the intonation, and the tone suffers. A cylindrical insert of around 0.5 mm is sufficient to bring the intonation into line without affecting the tone; it is also much easier to place than a wedge. Moreover, computer modelling suggests that, at least under some circumstances, a stepped cylinder headjoint profile can actually do a better job on the intonation than a tapered headjoint.

With the right headjoint, a cylindrical whistle or flute doesn't have to be flat in the second octave.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:34 pm 
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From my experience what Tunborough has just said is correct. I've been using perturbations in my head joints for many years and the upper octaves have always been in tune as well as the lower and that's with a cylindrical bore.

www.reyburnwhistles.com


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:32 am 
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Tunborough wrote:
jpwinstruments wrote:
Interesting discussion. What Hans has built and suggested is basically a Fajardo wedge. A tapered flue (which is how I build my instruments) helps the player a lot to bring the pitches up in tune with ease in the second octave so flue design plays an important role.
The cylindrical insert is actually quite different from a Fajardo wedge. In my experience, a wedge has to intrude quite a bit into the air stream to control the intonation, and the tone suffers. A cylindrical insert of around 0.5 mm is sufficient to bring the intonation into line without affecting the tone; it is also much easier to place than a wedge. Moreover, computer modelling suggests that, at least under some circumstances, a stepped cylinder headjoint profile can actually do a better job on the intonation than a tapered headjoint.

With the right headjoint, a cylindrical whistle or flute doesn't have to be flat in the second octave.

I agree. So what shall we call this device? "Cylindrical insert" does not quite cut it IMO, although technically it is "a cylindrical insert placed in the cylindrical bore of a flute or whistle below the flute embouchure hole or whistle window to help bringing upper and lower octaves into tune with each other".

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:43 am 
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What to call it?

An octave tuner, of course. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:08 am 
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Reyburnwhistles wrote:
From my experience what Tunborough has just said is correct. I've been using perturbations in my head joints for many years and the upper octaves have always been in tune as well as the lower and that's with a cylindrical bore.

http://www.reyburnwhistles.com


I just have to mention for those not familiar with Reyburn whistles is that they are always perfectly in tune.

Whatever magic he uses, it works!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:14 am 
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hans wrote:
I like the Killarney whistle's sweet tone. But the second octave plays way too flat...

I bought my Killarney whistle as they got introduced. I do not know if more recent ones have been sorted regards the octave tuning.


That's interesting because the Killarney I bought back in 2014 has perfect octaves but the Killarney I bought in 2018 has the quite flat 2nd octave you speak of.

Here's my little thread about those two Killarneys

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=107792

Thanks so much for providing a fix for flat 2nd octaves, which as you know is a fairly common problem, from old Generations to many modern whistles, including ones costing hundreds of dollars. I'll try your fix! (I have piles of brass and alloy tubing around in every conceivable size.)

BTW my fantastic-playing Colin Goldie Low C also has a slightly flat 2nd octave and I'll try your fix in that one too. I'll first try the blob of something.

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1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
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Last edited by pancelticpiper on Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:45 am 
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jpwinstruments wrote:
...get the second octave in tune and not worry too much about the first octave pitches... lower notes can be flat without the ear noticing as much...


Sorry but that's just not acceptable to me. I need every note to be in tune, for professional work.

jpwinstruments wrote:
...a cylindrical instrument is inherently flat in the second octave...cylindrical instruments are known for being flat in the second octave forcing the player to push extra hard to bring the second octave notes up into tune.


I have a whole roll of Irish whistles which are not flat in the 2nd octave, but produce every note from the low bellnote up to the 6th in the 2nd octave in tune, using a relatively even breath. Yes of course you have to change your breath to switch octaves but there's no "pushing extra hard" to get an inherently flat 2nd octave in tune. (I don't buy whistles like that.)

I've addressed it before (talking Low D's now by the top makers) how different makers have slightly different approaches to the octave tuning, all of which can be blown into tune by the player, but having different pros and cons.

Some makers have the 2nd octave a bit flat, and it has advantages, giving you room underneath the 2nd octave notes. I had a particular Low D (old Overton?) which had loads of room there, you could underblow the 2nd octave so much that the notes were whisper-soft and still didn't fall to the low octave. Yes those notes were very flat! But you could do cool effects, swelling the notes up to full pitch and volume.

The disadvantage to having the 2nd octave flat is that it exacerbates the already-present volume differential between the octaves, because you're "blowing out" the 2nd octave and underblowing the low octave to keep them in tune to each other.

Then you have the MK with the slightly sharp 2nd octave, which also has pros and cons.

I prefer the octaves right in the middle, where most good Low D makers have them, where you can play on an even breath and everything is in tune. All the Reyburn, Burke, Lofgren, Susato, etc Low D's which I've played have been right there, and my current Goldie Low D is quite perfect in the tuning all up and down the gamut.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:43 am 
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hans wrote:
So what shall we call this device?


Intonator? Pitch patch? Bracker octave enhancer?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:06 am 
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Just as an aside comment, Shakuhachi makers which go way back have used these constrictions in the bore to tune their bamboo instruments. And they do this by painting lacquer (many layers) at different places in the bore to bring their instruments into tune. These are perturbations in the bore to change the airflow (or air pressure) so that's what I call them.

www.reyburnwhistles.com


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
Nice to see others mentioning the tuning problems that the earlier ones had. It was weird seeing many forum posters and friends of mine singing the praises of what I believed to be a basically unusable out of tune whistle.


Interesting though how very discerning top of the range players can be seen and heard playing them at concerts without any problems. :wink:

Playing unusable whistles. You will have to wonder, how do they get away with it? :boggle:

What Mr. G said. And I wil add
that they're all out of tune kids.
Not one been made that isn't.
Get over it and start playing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Get over it and start playing.


I'll resume playing the whistle I have that is more in-tune than the other ones I have :lol:


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