Tin whistle ornamentation!

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
Ginger
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Want to learn more about tin whistle playing. Have now acquired a few whistles and am practicing every day to improve. Enjoy reading other forum users experiences on this board and their personal experiences with other brands of whistles.

Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Ginger »

Hello.
I am a newbie to the world of the tin whistle ( having learned the recorder at school for many years!) and a newbie to the forum.
I am sure I am not the first to ask this question and apologies if it has been asked elsewhere on the forum but how!!! HOW do you perform cuts and taps and rolls without sounding the extra note??
Every time I try it sounds like I am playing an extra note. I just can’t seem to get it right. Now I don’t know whether I am lifting my fingers too high or not high enough, or whether I am gripping the whistle too tight. :-?
Secondly.... when to use ornamentation? Do you just practice a piece and decide yourself which ornamentation to use? Or is there a general guide?
I just don’t know... it looks so easy and natural with some players but it’s so difficult to a newbie!!

Many thanks
piperjoe
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:41 am
antispam: No

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by piperjoe »

Run don't walk to the nearest whistle/flute teacher. :shock:

OK, so that might not be possible, but there are some alternatives. By the way, and just to put your mind at ease everyone, and I mean everyone on this forum has asked the same questions at some point in their journey. Really!

If you can't find a teacher close by, then pick up a good book. There are several, but one of the very best is the Tin Whistle Tool Box by Grey Larsen. L.E, McCullough also has a good one out, and as far as I know it's still in print. There are plenty or others and I'm sure lots of folks will chime in with their favorites.

Listening to good players helps but the fiddly bits sure go by in a hurry don't they? Enter Amazing Slow Downer. It's a software program that will play back music at slower speeds, without changing the pitch, so you can listen to your favorite whistlers and have at least a fighting chance at figuring out what's going on.

It won't all happen at once, but it will happen, and the whole process is fun! :thumbsup:

Piper Joe
User avatar
Mr.Gumby
Posts: 6606
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: the Back of Beyond

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Mr.Gumby »

when to use ornamentation?
It's hard to over emphasise the importance of listening and being in the company of good players. Books may provide an introduction but your real answer lies in the music itself and how good players approach it. This on the assumption you are asking after Irish Traditional Music.
My brain hurts

Image
JackJ
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: A new tin whistle player, I'm eager to learn more from the collective wisdom of this group. While my playing could use lots of help, I'm especially eager to learn which recordings to listen to.

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by JackJ »

Yes to the above—find a teacher locally if you can. If not, look at the online instruction available on YouTube from OIAM and others. And absolutely pick up either Grey Larsen’s Tin Whistle Toolbox or if you think you might also want to learn flute, his Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle. For me, his analysis and detailed, clear instruction on ornamentation far surpass anything else I’ve read, and allowed me to make better sense of what I’m hearing.
Last edited by JackJ on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
piperjoe
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:41 am
antispam: No

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by piperjoe »

I should have also pointed out the OAIM online lessons as Jackj did, also check out Skype lessons by Blayne Chastain. He of the Irish Flute Store. He and Deborah are great folks to deal with.

I also should have mentioned that both of the books I mentioned come with CDs so every lesson is not only shown in print but also demonstrated for you, many of them played slow and then at a faster tempo.

You've already made one giant step, you're hangin' out with this lot. Tons of experienced folks spend time on Chiff and Fipple, some of us more than we probably should, and very rarely is anyone here judgmental.
None of us suffer trolls gladly, but legitimate questions such as yours, are treated gently and respectfully.

So, when you have a question...ask! :poke:

Piper Joe
Ginger
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Want to learn more about tin whistle playing. Have now acquired a few whistles and am practicing every day to improve. Enjoy reading other forum users experiences on this board and their personal experiences with other brands of whistles.

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Ginger »

Thank you SO much to each and every one of you who replied. I am very grateful for all your advice!
I have been looking at a few You Tube videos and have found some good guidance there.
I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!
However I will try to find the resources mentioned by you guys. Once again many thanks for all your words of wisdom :love:
Ginger
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:29 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Want to learn more about tin whistle playing. Have now acquired a few whistles and am practicing every day to improve. Enjoy reading other forum users experiences on this board and their personal experiences with other brands of whistles.

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Ginger »

Also apologies to Oeorezonator who sent me a PM, sadly I am unable to view this as I am not authorised to read my own PMs!
User avatar
fiddlerwill
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:51 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I play traditional Irish and Scottish music.
"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
Location: Miltown Malbay

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by fiddlerwill »

Just learn a couple of hundred tunes and play them well without ornaments or mistakes then come back with your questions. Cheers
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Nanohedron »

Ginger wrote:Also apologies to Oeorezonator who sent me a PM, sadly I am unable to view this as I am not authorised to read my own PMs!
You are now. :)
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
busterbill
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:06 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by busterbill »

This example may or may not be relevant, since no one irons anymore. But when I used to I'd plug the iron in and spread my item on the board. Then to test if the iron was hot enough I'd touch it lightly with my fingertip. Since neither my brain nor my fingertip was happy with this move, the touch was light and the pick off immediate. I use this illustration when I teach cuts. Think of that particular finger hole as running about 200 F. :)
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by pancelticpiper »

Yes the death-grip will slow down the ornaments.

Having relaxed fingers is so important.

I've told of the excellent piper I know who told me about him spending practice sessions devoted entirely to practicing playing relaxed. "I don't care what sounds come out of my chanter. I'm only focused on being tension-free." He indeed has one of the most relaxed "grips" I've seen.

Having cuts sound right requires 1) the cutting finger lifting high enough to make a clear note and 2) being fast enough.

Some people try making their cuts faster by lifting the finger less. Lift the finger too little and your cuts won't have the clarity they need. Speed in your cuts can only come from practice.

Having pats sound right requires 1) the patting finger fully sealing the hole it strikes and 2) being fast enough.

People coming from "classical" woodwinds tend to keep their fingers close to the instrument. Especially so with Boehm flutes where they're trained to keep the fingers in contact with the keys to avoid "key noise".

This results, on Irish woodwinds, with pats that are too sluggish. They lack the "pop" that you want pats to have.

The trick is to lift the patting finger higher (an inch or more) a moment before the pat, which gives the finger the space to accelerate to the necessary speed.

Here's a little video I did on whistle ornamentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfu_fDUyNHs

And this one putting those things into a tune

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35SqhcSojn8&t=16s
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
piperjoe
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:41 am
antispam: No

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by piperjoe »

Ginger wrote:Thank you SO much to each and every one of you who replied. I am very grateful for all your advice!
I have been looking at a few You Tube videos and have found some good guidance there.
I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!
However I will try to find the resources mentioned by you guys. Once again many thanks for all your words of wisdom :love:
Ginger,

Buy a case of Guiness, stand on a corner with said Guiness, whistle players will find you! :thumbsup:

Piper Joe
User avatar
Mr.Gumby
Posts: 6606
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: the Back of Beyond

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!
Where in the country are you based?

Going to a summerschool or taking a workshop at a festival should be an option ( for example the Micho Russell weekend l next week has whistle workshops on Sat and Sunday), it's likely to give you enough to work on for a good while.
My brain hurts

Image
User avatar
brewerpaul
Posts: 7300
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Contact:

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by brewerpaul »

If you're really a newbie, I'd say don't even bother with ornaments at this point. An unornamented tune played well is far better than an ornamented tune played badly. Some of the old timers didn't use ornaments a lot. As a newbie you have more basic things to get solid at first- breathing,rhythm,etc. It would also help to have some tunes that you can play really well and smoothly before introducing an ornament or two.Patience--learning to play is a journey,not a destination.
Got wood?
http://www.Busmanwhistles.com
Let me custom make one for you!
Polara Pat
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:01 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: In an effort to ease from lurker to forum member; I'm hoping that this elite gang of whistlers will help this very green player to advance to the next stage. My current stage is slightly below novice and is only permitted in the garage like the dog I am. Oh yah, not a robot.

Re: Tin whistle ornamentation!

Post by Polara Pat »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
I live in Ireland and although it’s hard to believe, Tin Whistle teachers are not found on every corner sadly!
Where in the country are you based?

Going to a summerschool or taking a workshop at a festival should be an option ( for example the Micho Russell weekend l next week has whistle workshops on Sat and Sunday), it's likely to give you enough to work on for a good while.
That sounds like a great weekend. I'm trying convince my friend in Derry to make the trek.
Post Reply