Some Observations From a Learner

[JTU]

After about 20 months learning the whistle without any previous musical experience and with a lack of natural musical ability I would like to share some observations that I am sure not everyone will agree with but which might ring a chord (no pun intended) with other strugglers:
1. Jig rythym is really hard to master
2. Why aren’t beginners encouraged to start with barndances where the rhythm just seems to flow from the notes?
3. Why are beginners encouraged to buy cheap whistles. Everyone on the forum seems to recognise that to find a “good” cheap whistle is pot luck and you might have to try hundreds before you get a good one. I wonder how many potential players are lost to the whistle because they started with a rubbish instrument! Mostly in this world you get what you pay for. Whistles are no exception. Beginners should be encouraged from the beginning to spend a little bit and get something decent. After all even if you spend a 100 pounds or dollars in the music industry it’s peanuts.
4. For me wood is the whistle material of choice. It’s gentler on the ear and after 6 months give or take it plays in unbelievably. I have an Erle Bartlett wooden D whistle which I bought new in March this year which now plays more easily through the octaves that my Killarney D and which takes less breath.
Hope I haven’t annoyed anyone but just some random thoughts I wanted to mention. Cheers

[PB+J]

After about 20 months learning the whistle without any previous musical experience and with a lack of natural musical ability I would like to share some observations that I am sure not everyone will agree with but which might ring a chord (no pun intended) with other strugglers:
1. Jig rythym is really hard to master
2. Why aren’t beginners encouraged to start with barndances where the rhythm just seems to flow from the notes?
3. Why are beginners encouraged to buy cheap whistles. Everyone on the forum seems to recognise that to find a “good” cheap whistle is pot luck and you might have to try hundreds before you get a good one. I wonder how many potential players are lost to the whistle because they started with a rubbish instrument! Mostly in this world you get what you pay for. Whistles are no exception. Beginners should be encouraged from the beginning to spend a little bit and get something decent. After all even if you spend a 100 pounds or dollars in the music industry it’s peanuts.
4. For me wood is the whistle material of choice. It’s gentler on the ear and after 6 months give or take it plays in unbelievably. I have an Erle Bartlett wooden D whistle which I bought new in March this year which now plays more easily through the octaves that my Killarney D and which takes less breath.
Hope I haven’t annoyed anyone but just some random thoughts I wanted to mention. Cheers

I agree very much with your third point. It’s extremely frustrating starting out if you can’t tell the difference between your bad technique and problems with the whistle. A good whistle is very inexpensive relativlly speaking.

It’s the same with, say, a bad guitar, that has high action and dead spots and a dull tone. You have trouble fretting the thing, but it’s made much worse but the poor guitar. Except starting with a good whistle is peanuts

[Mr.Gumby]

It’s the same with, say, a bad guitar, that has high action and dead spots and a dull tone.

I wonder if it is. Over time we've had quite a few accounts of people who used cursed cheap whistles as a beginne, then put them in a drawer, came back to them a few years later to find they were actually quite nice to play. I has even become a sort of running gag over the years, how a beginner would put a poor whistle away, only to find it greatly improved with time unplayed.

That thing about having to go through 'hundreds of whistles to find a decent one' is one of these misconceptions that is hard to root out. It may take going through a fair amount of whistles to find an exceptional one. But would a beginner be able to recognise an exceptional one? Most cheap whistles are serviceable, if not particularly special.

As for tune choices, the world is your oyster, play whatever you like and feel comfortable with. Work your way through primary school songs, polkas, mazurkas, jigs or whatever type of music takes your fancy. Whatever comes into your head, whatever you enjoy.

It's probably also good to remember people are different and some people take to one rhythm more, or more easily, than others. I wouldn't fancy barndances a lot, to be honest. But again, play what suits and what you enjoy. Nobody is forcing you otherwise.

Also take into consideration the different aesthetics and expectations, a traditional whistler is perhaps looking for something quite different than what most new comers here expect to find, or so it appears. The wooden whistle preference is quite a hint in that direction.

The whistle is what it is. A lot of people appear to come to it expecting it to be something it isn't. And then blame the instrument for their disappointment at finding their expectations not met by the instrument, refusing to take it as it comes.

By all means, spend as much as you like on a whistle, however, beginners will always sound like beginners, no matter how much they spend. And that's fine, you work your way through that, without shortcuts.

[PB+J]

It’s the same with, say, a bad guitar, that has high action and dead spots and a dull tone.

I wonder if it is. Over time we've had quite a few accounts of people who used cursed cheap whistles as a beginne, then put them in a drawer, came back to them a few years later to find they were actually quite nice to play. I has even become a sort of running gag over the years, how a beginner would put a poor whistle away, only to find it greatly improved with time unplayed.

That thing about having to go through 'hundreds of whistles to find a decent one' is one of these misconceptions that is hard to root out. It may take going through a fair amount of whistles to find an exceptional one. But would a beginner be able to recognise an exceptional one? Most cheap whistles are serviceable, if not particularly special.

As for tune choices, the world is your oyster, play whatever you like and feel comfortable with. Work your way through primary school songs, polkas, mazurkas, jigs or whatever type of music takes your fancy. Whatever comes into your head, whatever you enjoy.

Also take into consideration the different aesthetics and expectations, a traditional whistler is perhaps looking for something quite different than what most new comers here expect to find, or so it appears. The wooden whistle preference is quite a hint in that direction.

The whistle is what it is. A lot of people appear to come to it expecting it to be something it isn't and then blame the instrument for their disappointment at finding their expectations aren't met.

By all means, spend as much as you like on a whistle, however, beginners will always sound like beginners, no matter how much they spend. And that's fine, you work your way through that, without shortcuts.

It is; I can play a bad guitar very well. I just don't enjoy it. I have to constantly compensate for the things it doesn't do well. I find it to be the same with whistles--whistles I did not like when I started I can now play well, or at least my wife thinks so, and they sound ok, but they end up back in the drawer. Because they are less pleasant and more work to play.

I'm not arguing for snobbery or being precious about it--lots of inexpensive guitars, for example, are excellent. And musical history is full of stories of guys starting out on a cheap fiddle/guitar/horn etc and ending up really good. Generally, in these stories, the starter instrument is no longer around

[Mr.Gumby]

Yes, so you keep saying. But I question whether it applies to whistles in the way you apply it. Sindts and Killarneys, they're just fine. They blend well, they're sturdy and all that. Some people have them to be seen making a commitment to the instrument. But playing a D or C, for easy handling, nimble playing I'd keep a cheap whistle within reach. Not because I can play a poor instrument or some sort of reverse snobism. I do it because they're much more fun to play and do so with greater ease. Effortless joy. And I believe I am far from alone in thinking that.

[fatmac]

I'm a relative newcomer, I have a selection of whistles already, lots of Generations brass & nickel. a Feadog brass, a Waltons aluminium, a Tony Dixon ABS & Trad brass.

Why am I telling you, because they all play as well as I can, & I choose to play mainly Folk tunes, English & Scottish, they're what I like, so that's what I play.

I think you get out what you put in, practice & you'll get better.

[Nanohedron]

1. Jig rythym is really hard to master

This will depend on the player. Beginners will have their own difficulties in certain areas, but these areas are by no means universal to all; another might find reels difficult to master, but jigs easy. The thing to do, I think, is to redouble your efforts with jigs until the rhythm aspect loses its difficulty for you. Don't rush it: find the speed you can be steady at, and build a good habit first.

2. Why aren’t beginners encouraged to start with barndances where the rhythm just seems to flow from the notes?

Again, you're citing a personal experience, not a universal one. In the meantime, there's nothing stopping you from going for the barndances.

I think jigs have greater representation because dancers are more likely to request them over barndances. This is dance music, after all, and I think it's safe to say that the repertory reflects what has remained most popular among those we play for.

As to whistles, I think it's a mistake to believe that as in guitars, cheapness in whistles is going to be a deficit. Due to significant differences in how they produce sound, you can't logically compare the two in terms of correlating cost to sound quality and playability. I've heard top-of-the-line blackwood whistles that I frankly hated; others were nice. It must be pointed out that in both cases the players' respective abilities were very likely a factor in my response, so I'm just as likely to chalk it up to playing as to the whistle itself. I've tried wood whistles, and have seen some downright unacceptable ones. I've never quite warmed to wood whistles myself, even the good ones; I don't like the feel of the greater outer diameter compared to metal or plastic. In my own case, I have been very happy with Generations, Feadógs, Susatos, and the like. Although it's true that you might have to sift through a few cheapies for the one you like best, this has not proven the case for me. TBH, I have come across far more good ones than bad, and I daresay my ear is not altogether derelict. You're just as likely to find you have to pick and choose from a given maker's line of top-end wood whistles, too. Bear in mind that "good" or "bad" are often purely a matter of subjective taste based on a host of factors, barring more objective qualities such as tuning.

[pancelticpiper]

First, thanks for your post. You offer a perspective that's interesting and valuable to me, because it's alien to me. Having started whistle in the 1970s I just don't remember much about the learning process.

And your 20 months learning! I wouldn't know when my learning period began or ended. Because I never set about to learn the whistle, really. I was learning Irish flute and uilleann pipes and whistles were around.

Jig rythym is really hard to master.

Yes for me too. I've slowed down some great jig players and with some there's a subtle dotting to the rhythm. Paddy Keenan is the most amazing and impossible for me to duplicate. When slowed down it seems to be so simple, such a steady metronome-like flow of notes. But up to speed it's magic.

Why are beginners encouraged to buy cheap whistles? I wonder how many potential players are lost to the whistle because they started with a rubbish instrument!

I don't think anyone would recommend a beginner starting on a rubbish instrument. Inexpensive yes, rubbish no. (See below).

You get what you pay for. Whistles are no exception.

But whistles are an exception.

When I started playing whistle Generation D's were the only D's available. Every beginner and every seasoned professional player played the same instrument. There were no "beginner" instruments. No "upgrade" instruments. No "professional" instruments. You could not pay more than $6 for a D whistle if you wanted to.

I know it runs contrary to mainstream music, but it was really like that.

But they weren't the same instrument! Because Generations varied tremendously. Great players played great whistles, because they had spent years playing any whistle they came across, and they played the best one they happened to find. A beginner's first whistle might be just as good- or it might not.

In my opinion this is as true now as it was in the 1970s. I have played expensive wood whistles and silver whistles, thousand dollar whistles and hundred dollar whistles, and I've never come across the equal to my old Generation C.

I have a wooden D whistle... plays more easily through the octaves that my Killarney D.

Personally I've never played a wood whistle I've liked. Every one I've tried has had a stiffer 2nd octave than I want.

Setting aside for the moment the fact that we might have very different ideas about "playing easily through the octaves" I would very much like to try a wood whistle that has a lighter/easier/more responsive 2nd octave than a Killarney. I suspect that such doesn't exist, but who can say?

I don't think the stiff high notes of wood whistles has anything to do with them being made of wood. Rather I think it's market forces, that the sort of buyer who is attracted to expensive wood whistles wants the voicing rather different than I want.

[bigsciota]

The only objective improvement or upgrade you can get from a more expensive whistle is better tuning/intonation. Everything else, from tone to volume to octave balance to breath requirement and on is subjective. Even tuning is subjective, really, since someone might prefer equal temperament vs just tuning, or like a flatter bottom D.

Personally I've never played a wood whistle I've liked. Every one I've tried has had a stiffer 2nd octave than I want.

I'm the same way, less of a "stiff 2nd octave" complaint and more of a general tone thing that just doesn't match what I want from a whistle. And that's the thing, name a whistle maker and you'll have people lining up on both sides. Some people swear by Susatos, others can't stand them. Dixons are often put forward as a first "upgrade," but Mr. Gumby has never found a use for them. I'm constantly surprised by others' views on whistles, as something I'll find horrid is praised to high heavens while something I love to play is dismissed out of hand.

Here's a dirty little secret about expensive whistles: the majority of people who play them are awful. In fact, the most expensive whistles I've seen played were in the hands of some of the worst players I've heard. But that's not because playing a high-end, custom-made whistle makes you a bad player. The issue is that, quite frankly, most people aren't very good. That's the nature of learning, you're not going to be very good when you start, and you'll stay not good for a pretty long time. It has nothing to do with the whistle you're playing and everything to do with the person playing it. And the only way to get better is to practice. You are just not going to get that much better a sound out of a more expensive whistle if the player remains the same.

Now, if you absolutely love a particular whistle, and it gets you to play and practice more, then it is absolutely worth getting no matter what the cost. But I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not your whistle is expensive or cheap. The only time anyone will dock you for playing a cheap whistle is at the Fleadh, and who cares what they think anyway?

Speaking of cheaper brands, I see absolutely nothing wrong with Generations, and in fact would heartily recommend them as the perfect instrument to start on, since they're cheap and readily available. Out of a batch of 100, it's true that there may only be 1 or 2 exceptional gems. But about 90 or so would be very serviceable players, some of those quite good in fact. And yes, some handful will end up being duds, usually due to a manufacturing problem with the head that can be improved with a small amount of tweaking. If you're starting out, a Generation will not hold you back, nor will really any of the common cheap whistles. The key is to play what you got, and then play what everyone else around you has, too. If you try enough of them, after a while you'll develop your preferences and maybe get something else you like. I ended up with a Killarney, and I honestly don't need another D whistle (doesn't stop me from trying the odd one out, of course!). But that was after almost 3 years playing a Generation, and I wasn't switching because my instrument was holding me back. In fact, that Generation is sitting next to me right now. I guess I should play something before bed...

[Polara Pat]

Funny, I was going to put up a very similar post since I'm coming up on my one year anniversary of playing. Instead I'll just ride your coat tails and give my two cents. A couple of the mantras that seem to get repeated a lot here are to practice often and LISTEN as much as possible. Lack of listening is definitely one of my weaknesses but if you immerse yourself then you may get a better feel for the jig rhythm. I agree with what has already been said about personal experience as well. I have a few jigs that I can play ok but I just spent two weeks trying to nail down Cooley's and that's supposed to be a beginners reel. As far as whistle quality goes, I started off with cheap whistles like most people and occasionally would blame the instrument for squeaking out of tune or whatever but guess what? My Kilarney and Sweetheart whistles are collecting dust while I play all of my cheapies. Some are loud, some play better high and others low. I don't think I own one that covers everything but that's ok. Play tunes you like otherwise it will feel like a job.

[Tor]

As a guitar player for more than 45 years, and owner of lots of guitars (and lots of whistles), I do not agree that you can compare. Most cheap guitars (with exceptions) are pretty bad, at least the action is bad, and, as was said - there may be dull tones (or wolf tones too), and various issues that may actually be fixable: Sharp fret ends, and so on. Incredibly enough, these days, the intonation may be bad too. Shouldn't be possible, but yes some cheap makers are able to put the bridge in the wrong position.
One thing about stringed instruments is that the wood used actually matters a *lot*. Not so with wind instruments, the material itself doesn't contribute (much, if anything) to the tone. Only in how easy it is for the maker to work it. With stringed instruments the wood *is* the tone.

With guitars, you often get what you pay for.

With whistles, no. It's not comparable. It just isn't. Yes, there are differences, and yes, there are variations, but you can easily pay ten or twenty times more for a whistle that turns out to not offer much more than the one you had already. For the high whistles I own I prefer my Freeman Bluebird. Not expensive at all. I have more expensive ones. The Bluebird is more expensive than an off-the-shelf Gen D, but could I use the latter if I didn't have the former available? Sure. Could I play my friend's cheap out-of-tune guitar if I didn't have one of my own, for more than a few minutes? No. It's basically unplayable. And there are lots of those guitars.
But even the very cheap Walton 'Guinnes' model I bought in Dublin airport a long time ago is OK if I'm in need of a whistle. It's not at all unplayable, unlike "cheap" guitars.

Of low whistles I've only owned two - a $20 PCB low D, and a $340 (IIRC) Burke. I like the latter a lot. Extremely consistent intonation, and a tone that I like. But the $20 one is OK too. I gave it away to someone in need because I don't need it myself anymore. If it was bad I wouldn't have given it away, just as I don't give away bad guitars. It's perfectly playable, and I could (and did) easily play it instead of the Burke in our little come-togethers.

When all this has been said, you can as well get one of the 'tweaked' ones for not much more money than an off-the-shelf one. Just get a Freeman of some model, or from one of the other not-too-expensive tweakers, if that's more available. If there's a problem then at least you don't have to waste energy in thinking there may be something wrong with the whistle. There may not be so much difference compared to an off-the-shelf Gen or Clarke or Feadog etc, but at least you know that it has been through the hands of someone who knows about whistles.

Edit: As to bigsciota's post - lots I agree with. And it's definitely true that if you can find an instrument that somehow makes you play more, then that's very good. But you *will not* find that instrument by ordering an expensive whistle on the net. It's extremely unlikely. My Burke Viper low D *is* like that though - but then again I had the opportunity to try *every whistle* in the shop, for as long as I wished, with only myself and my brother-in-law in the shop. Something I don't expect will happen very often. So I found a whistle that I just can't leave on the table. Must pick it up. That's probably good for learning to play it.. I still have a long way to go.
But the thing is - I *know* that lots of other people have a completely different feeling about that particular model whistle. It's good *for me*. Doesn't mean it's good for everybody else. While a good guitar is just something that every guitar player loves to play. I have one particular one that's truly exceptional - and would cost an absolute fortune if I were to get another one built - but everybody who tries it, without knowing its background (or anything about it), just loves it. "Best guitar I've ever tried!". That won't happen with whistles. Not consistently, anyway.

[Mr.Gumby]

I just spent two weeks trying to nail down Cooley's and that's supposed to be a beginners reel

The thing about these perceived 'beginner's' tunes is that they made it into tutor books because they were popular at the time. They made it in there because the learner would already know them to hear, which in turn would facilitate quicker learning. For the same reason all sort of songs made it into the beginner's books : because (Irish) people would know them from learning them in school ('Bog down in the valley' and that sort of thing). Subsequent tutors unquestioningly copied the same repertoire, even if the popularity of the tunes may have waned. I think it would be good for beginners to have a tutor book teaching tunes popular today, instead of ones just copying previous books. Get beginners (and their sessions) to play today's repertoire rather than the tunes popular between 1975-85.

There are more simple reels than Cooley's. But there needs to be a balance between tunes being popular, giving the learner a feeling of achievement because he is playing 'real' tunes that are played by accomplished musicians, tunes that provide a bit of a challenge, and thus provide opportunity for learning and progress, and the consideration that very simple tunes work because of the musicianship of the player : a beginner is perhaps not likely to make them 'work' in a satisfying way and can be put off because of it.

I am not too fond of shoveling tunes into the 'beginner's enclosure'. It sort of diminishes them. Cooley's is a classic tune and part of a classic set : Cooley's/Wise Maid. It's a lovely set to fall back on and when played well it can really fly. Over the summer I have heard several groups of the finest musicians we have, play it. In fact I have had a recording of Paddy Canny and Vincent Griffin playing that set on rotation in recent weeks. Wonderful stuff.

[JTU]

Thanks for everyone’s views and comments they have been really interesting. I’m sure my perceptions will change over time and with experience. I am certainly enjoying the journey and challenge of finding tunes that I like and can muddle through. At the moment those tunes comprise mainly barndances and hornpipes - hopefully jigs and reels will become easier over time.

Richard, I am sure you are correct about the naivety of my perceptions of the ease of the Killarney and the wood. Certainly the wood even to someone of my level is not as responsive as the Killarney but it is very smooth through the second octave so that the breath increase through the higher notes is very even and stable. Additionally the two octaves seem closely related in volume and tone. Hope that makes sense. I wouldn’t class the second octave on my wood whistle as stiff. To give you some idea of how I perceive a stiff octave I have a Parks D which has in my view a lovely first octave but a stiff second octave. The Parks is great for quiet practice by the way. The wood whistle I have wasn’t particularly expensive - nothing like the Abel or Oz, a bit less than the Milligan in your Dollars.

By the way the comment from one of the contributors about the Fleadh as in the statement below ssounds really interesting. I have no idea what a Fleadh is???

“The only time anyone will dock you for playing a cheap whistle is at the Fleadh, and who cares what they think anyway”

[Mr.Gumby]

By the way the comment from one of the contributors about the Fleadh as in the statement below ssounds really interesting. I have no idea what a Fleadh is???

“The only time anyone will dock you for playing a cheap whistle is at the Fleadh, and who cares what they think anyway”

Fleadhs (Fleadhanna actually) are competitions, leading up to the annual All Ireland Fleadh where that year's champions in various categories are picked. Adjudicators seem instructed these days to mark down participants when using cheap (or cheap looking) whistles. I referred to it in one of my posts above, some people need to be seen to have made the commitment to the instrument by playing a visibly expensive whistle. One girl I was teaching was marked down for playing a Jerry Freeman I had lent her, in the next round she had the loan of another one, a Gary Humphrey, the delrin head didn't look posh enough, I can only assume. So she had another comment on her adjudication sheet (both whistles sounded fine, by the way, and she played them well) so by the time she made it to the All Ireland I had to get her a Sindt. It's silly stuff, not based on sound but on looks.

[pancelticpiper]

Shouldn't be possible, but yes some cheap (guitar) makers are able to put the bridge in the wrong position.

What amazes me is when not-cheap whistles have one or more holes in the wrong position. Shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

Yes it's possible to compensate for a bad scale with judicious blowing, but we players shouldn't be put in the position of needing to do that, when putting the holes in the right places isn't exactly rocket science.

...a $340 (IIRC) Burke. I like the latter a lot. Extremely consistent intonation, and a tone that I like.

Yes there's not many flies on Burkes. One of the nicest things is their predictability: you can pick up a High D and a Low D and any size in between and you know how it will play. The voicing across the sizes is remarkably consistent. This is a big plus for professional players who might have to grab any size at a gig and make music.
In the end the 2nd octaves of Burkes are a tad stiffer than I would like, and I get a better balance between sweet high notes and solid low notes on other makes.
But I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Burke to a beginner, because of the high quality and superb consistency.