Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
- elbowmusic
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Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
I'm not making chanters at the moment, but I'm wondering how makers have gone about lowering the pitch of Rowsome chanters that were designed to play sharp of our current concert 440? I know in the past there were mixed results from simply forcing the design lower through reed making, but bore design is surely the better way. Does anyone know if it's as simple (ha!) as stretching the bore a bit? I'm guessing that's the answer, but probably some parts of the bore should get more of the stretch...
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
I gues using a rush up the chanter bore is what most makers did to solve the problem.
Or buy an Aebi
Or buy an Aebi
Last edited by glasba on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
- myles
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
I've never heard any of Aebi's stuff but as far as I know Alain Froment based his D chanters on a Rowsome, brought down to modern pitch with a rush. There are various approaches different makers have taken and I think the 'scaling up' / bore changing approaches have also been used. Rogge claims to have studied Rowsome's work for one. I think some of Peter Hunter's chanters were Rowsome-derived but these aren't rushed to my knowledge.
Last edited by myles on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Incidentally I reckon that part of the unique quality of that Rowsome sound is due to the higher pitch in the first place.
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
I agree "myles"
I wanted to suggest that in the 1st place but then you are not in 440 anymore.
I wanted to suggest that in the 1st place but then you are not in 440 anymore.
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
This is something I've often wondered about. The first recordings of the pipes I heard and that first inspired me to find out more were of players, often a touch sharp of D, playing concert chanters with that Rowsome / Crowley / Kennedy 'sound'. It's not a sound I hear much in concert chanters these days - but how much of it is due to the pitch or the reedmaker's or even recording engineer's preferences? It's impossible to tell.
I suppose the only constant is that everything would be simpler if pipes were simply allowed to play in the pitch their original maker tuned them to - not that that's even 100% certain with many old sets.
I suppose the only constant is that everything would be simpler if pipes were simply allowed to play in the pitch their original maker tuned them to - not that that's even 100% certain with many old sets.
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
As people begin to know, I agree completly with this: the old small Rowsome's chanters sound perfectly.
To make it short, I give you my last measurements to make a reed making them playing at the modern pitch, without using a rush.
It actually gives the best reeds I've ever made.
Sorry, I give you them in millimeters...
Staple: conical, 55 to 58 mm long; 4,2 to 4,6 mm wide inner diameter; wall thickness around 0,5 mm.
Eye is flatten in order to get a nice eliptical shape, that gives an apperture around 3 mm of outer high.
Slip: 116 mm long; 14mm wide; 1,2 1,25 mm thick. This last point is of crucial importance. The secret is: If the rear part of the blades is to tough, the D's does'nt work.
Cane outer diam. does'nt matters much. Around 23; 24 mm is allwright.
Free part of the head: 29 mm long
Scraping: 20 mm long
Binding onto 25 mm from lips.
Bridle settled against the binding.
The head is "boat shaped" from lips to tail end, with an ogival design.
I cut it before separating blades.
I flatten the inner face of the edges, from tip tail to nearly lips end, in order to get rather strong shoulders.
When slip is cutted, I make a nice V rough cut of the scraped area. This allows the blades to get easier the curvature given by the binding around the staple.
Lips can be rather thin.
When head is settled and binded, I start finishing the scraping, taking care not to remove too much can on the rear.
The shoulders have to be thinned enough on the tip (lips), to give the backD a clear timber. Be carefull not to weaken them too much along the rear part. That makes the backD more fragile.
Set the bridle.
These reeds are made to work as close as the low A tuning allows.
If HardD does'nt work, or if the backD is too high, dig a bit the bottom of the scraped area.
If the highE start to flatten, only remove wood on edges of the scraping.
Don't lengthen the scraping if you want to keep the highE high enough.
If high G is too flat, you have to shorten the head, by rebinding the staple further into it.
You maybe have to make another reed with shorter head, trying to flatten it by enlarging a bit the blades, gouging the slip a bit thinner, or scraping a bit longer if highE allows it.
This basic design must certainly be adjusted depending of chanters, varying the different parameters length or sections.
Depending of the cane hardness, the reed will sounds differently, and the scale and pitch will also be modified.
Things can be partialy counterbalanced by gouging thinner if cane is harder.
There's many other points to be developed, but its too late for me to be more specific
To make it short, I give you my last measurements to make a reed making them playing at the modern pitch, without using a rush.
It actually gives the best reeds I've ever made.
Sorry, I give you them in millimeters...
Staple: conical, 55 to 58 mm long; 4,2 to 4,6 mm wide inner diameter; wall thickness around 0,5 mm.
Eye is flatten in order to get a nice eliptical shape, that gives an apperture around 3 mm of outer high.
Slip: 116 mm long; 14mm wide; 1,2 1,25 mm thick. This last point is of crucial importance. The secret is: If the rear part of the blades is to tough, the D's does'nt work.
Cane outer diam. does'nt matters much. Around 23; 24 mm is allwright.
Free part of the head: 29 mm long
Scraping: 20 mm long
Binding onto 25 mm from lips.
Bridle settled against the binding.
The head is "boat shaped" from lips to tail end, with an ogival design.
I cut it before separating blades.
I flatten the inner face of the edges, from tip tail to nearly lips end, in order to get rather strong shoulders.
When slip is cutted, I make a nice V rough cut of the scraped area. This allows the blades to get easier the curvature given by the binding around the staple.
Lips can be rather thin.
When head is settled and binded, I start finishing the scraping, taking care not to remove too much can on the rear.
The shoulders have to be thinned enough on the tip (lips), to give the backD a clear timber. Be carefull not to weaken them too much along the rear part. That makes the backD more fragile.
Set the bridle.
These reeds are made to work as close as the low A tuning allows.
If HardD does'nt work, or if the backD is too high, dig a bit the bottom of the scraped area.
If the highE start to flatten, only remove wood on edges of the scraping.
Don't lengthen the scraping if you want to keep the highE high enough.
If high G is too flat, you have to shorten the head, by rebinding the staple further into it.
You maybe have to make another reed with shorter head, trying to flatten it by enlarging a bit the blades, gouging the slip a bit thinner, or scraping a bit longer if highE allows it.
This basic design must certainly be adjusted depending of chanters, varying the different parameters length or sections.
Depending of the cane hardness, the reed will sounds differently, and the scale and pitch will also be modified.
Things can be partialy counterbalanced by gouging thinner if cane is harder.
There's many other points to be developed, but its too late for me to be more specific
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Copy a later Rowsome? Or just focus on the reed.
I'm not sure I understand that if you have the opportunity to redesign why copy the 14" chanters when good examples of his 14.25" chanters
are available?
As an example to demonstrate - a well known piper took the reed from his 14" chanter that was right on 440 and put it in my 14.25" chanter.
Result was that it sounded beautiful, but, was way flat of 440.
M
I'm not sure I understand that if you have the opportunity to redesign why copy the 14" chanters when good examples of his 14.25" chanters
are available?
As an example to demonstrate - a well known piper took the reed from his 14" chanter that was right on 440 and put it in my 14.25" chanter.
Result was that it sounded beautiful, but, was way flat of 440.
M
- elbowmusic
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I'm a smallpipe and Border pipe maker and we'll just see where that leads to. - Location: Howl's Unmoving Castle
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
By available, do you mean to the general public? I'm just learning about this stuff. Are there a number of Rowsome numbers kicking around?m4malious wrote:Copy a later Rowsome? Or just focus on the reed.
I'm not sure I understand that if you have the opportunity to redesign why copy the 14" chanters when good examples of his 14.25" chanters
are available?
-Nate Banton-
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Problem is that, until now, I never found a longered chanter sounding like the small ones.
It seems that, as soon as you make them longer, you loose this particular timber.
It is mainly sensitive on the hard D.
But it's only a matter of taste...
Maybe it is possible to conceive a flatter chanter, sounding the same, but what have been generaly done is only to change the length, using the same reamers than for small chanters, but I never came across a convincing exemple.
But I'm not living in Ireland...
It seems that, as soon as you make them longer, you loose this particular timber.
It is mainly sensitive on the hard D.
But it's only a matter of taste...
Maybe it is possible to conceive a flatter chanter, sounding the same, but what have been generaly done is only to change the length, using the same reamers than for small chanters, but I never came across a convincing exemple.
But I'm not living in Ireland...
- rorybbellows
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
NPU sell Rowsome planselbowmusic wrote:By available, do you mean to the general public? I'm just learning about this stuff. Are there a number of Rowsome numbers kicking around?
http://pipers.ie/store/products/plans-f ... wsome-npu/
RORY
I'm Spartacus .
- elbowmusic
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Well, thank you for all the replies guys. I didn't realize that there were Rowsome chanters that could be so satisfactorily reeded to play at 440. That's really great. I'm just starting to learn about this stuff, it's all very interesting to me. I guess I'll just need to keep my eyes open for some chanters to measure, as there doesn't seem to be much for numbers out there.
Rory, I believe that the McKeon Rowsome the NPU has plans for is a "big" bore Rowsome. That's according to Bill Haneman. Sounds like I want to get my hands on a smaller bore Rowsome. That's fine, I'm not in any hurry to delve into the possibly frustrating world of concert D chanters. I have a Gallagher C chanter that I am enjoying reeding up. Seems to be very easy to do. I'll be making drones to play with it shortly. I'll probably make reamers for the Kenna C that NPU gives plans for next.
Rory, I believe that the McKeon Rowsome the NPU has plans for is a "big" bore Rowsome. That's according to Bill Haneman. Sounds like I want to get my hands on a smaller bore Rowsome. That's fine, I'm not in any hurry to delve into the possibly frustrating world of concert D chanters. I have a Gallagher C chanter that I am enjoying reeding up. Seems to be very easy to do. I'll be making drones to play with it shortly. I'll probably make reamers for the Kenna C that NPU gives plans for next.
-Nate Banton-
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
- bcullen
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
This is free on the net I graphed a plot from the bore numbers as the link was not working this gave me the measurements to
make reamers and plot the sound holes. I used the external measurements of my P Hunter concert D and have made two chanters both are 440 I approached Craig and he gave me the measurements for a Rowsome reed. I had made a number of reeds that were soooo
close. The difference was a rolled reed worked so much better. I had been using 5mm OD Brass. To me everything sounds great. To Craig they are very good BUT. He advised letting the bore move and settle then re ream then use almond oil on the bores. It should improve the hard D. (This is ongoing) in the meantime keep knocking out the reeds. The man is an absolute wealth of knowledge and very generous with it.
Bryan
Just checked the link you will have to cut and paste
file:///C:/Users/Public/Pictures/Rowsome%20chanter/Uilleann%20Chanter%20Design%20%20Leo%20Rowsome.htm
make reamers and plot the sound holes. I used the external measurements of my P Hunter concert D and have made two chanters both are 440 I approached Craig and he gave me the measurements for a Rowsome reed. I had made a number of reeds that were soooo
close. The difference was a rolled reed worked so much better. I had been using 5mm OD Brass. To me everything sounds great. To Craig they are very good BUT. He advised letting the bore move and settle then re ream then use almond oil on the bores. It should improve the hard D. (This is ongoing) in the meantime keep knocking out the reeds. The man is an absolute wealth of knowledge and very generous with it.
Bryan
Just checked the link you will have to cut and paste
file:///C:/Users/Public/Pictures/Rowsome%20chanter/Uilleann%20Chanter%20Design%20%20Leo%20Rowsome.htm
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Your link is to your harddrive...
file:///C:/ That C: in there should be familiar
file:///C:/ That C: in there should be familiar
- an seanduine
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Re: Second question - Lowering the pitch of Rowsome copies
Curiously enough, removing the redundant '/' at the beginning of the link and 'doin' the Google' gives the suggestion linking to Kev Rowsome's home page.
also, I am confused by your reference to 'Craig'? Is this the Sasquatch of the piping world, Craig Fischer? Often rumored but seldom sighted?
Bob
also, I am confused by your reference to 'Craig'? Is this the Sasquatch of the piping world, Craig Fischer? Often rumored but seldom sighted?
Bob
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted
The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi