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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:57 am 
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With the fipple just stuck inside a pipe like that, the normal air flow will just stay inside the pipe. You want it to flow across the windway and out. Refer to Guido Gonzato http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/ for a more reliable fipple design, if somewhat more complicated. You might get away with sanding the top of the fipple block to direct the air flow out of the window; it might make a sound, although not a great sound. (With the ends capped, the air flow is forced out the window, which is why you get a sound in that case.)

I suggest you use different lengths of pipe on the two branches of the Y. Then, when you do get a sound, do you get two sounds or just one? There's no point in having finger holes in both branches if you don't get two sounds. But I'm willing to bet you get only one, in which case the Y has no value beyond whimsy.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:05 am 
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With the pipes blocked, surely you're making an ocarina, not a whistle.

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:01 pm 
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Thank you Tumborough,

Yes, I think you're right that there's a basic problem in the fipple construction. At lunch today I finally got around to drilling a couple holes in the right hand pipe. No change in pitch at all. Then I decided maybe the pipes were too long for a single-chambered ocarina (like Songbird's old Wishbone) and tried shortening each branch by about an inch and a half, effectively removing the second finger hole, then capped them again (This also brings the size a lot closer to the original prop which was about nine inches long). Brought the core tone from C6 to E6 (I can see I'm going to hate the sound of this thing...I'm a fan of soothing middle and low notes ;) ), but still no change in pitch whether the remaining hole was open or shut, until I increased the hole size to 1/4'', as I know some ocarinas have fairly large holes. The difference in size between the next largest drill bit and the 1/4 was enough to go from no change in sound to NO sound at all with the hole uncovered. So yeah, the next item on my agenda was going to be stripping off the tape and going back to making the fipple work with a single pipe to try and diagnose the problem, but I'm sure you're right. What I was looking at for construction reference was something like this pic and it doesn't show the necessity of the air going OVER the window lip: http://www.pocketfarm.co.uk/wp-content/ ... ce_600.jpg. Thank you for pointing out the flaw and directing me to some better plans. I have a lot to accomplish this weekend, but hopefully I'll be back with a better attempt next week.

S1m0n, I'm not sure in this case where the difference lies. Maybe I misused the terminology. Certainly once it had finger holes I'd call it an ocarina. A single-chambered ocarina seemed the simplest thing by far to start with, even if what I'm really interested in is getting a double-chambered harmonic sound. But until I get basic concepts like constructing a proper fipple right, I'm not going to approach something harder.

Not to mention that I have a number of friends as nerdy as myself who would be tickled to see just a working ocarina, just so it looks like Tumnus' instrument.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:28 pm 
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s1m0n wrote:
With the pipes blocked, surely you're making an ocarina, not a whistle.
Good point, s1m0n. In this case, the pipes may be long enough to function more like an overtone flute than an ocarina, but it could be operating somewhere in between.
opera13 wrote:
S1m0n, I'm not sure in this case where the difference lies.
An ocarina is a vessel flute. Its playing frequency is based on the Helmholz resonance of a large volume of air, and increases as the area of uncovered holes increases, rather than depending on the length of the resonator and the position of the finger holes.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:07 am 
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opera13 wrote:
S1m0n, I'm not sure in this case where the difference lies. Maybe I misused the terminology. Certainly once it had finger holes I'd call it an ocarina. A single-chambered ocarina seemed the simplest thing by far to start with, even if what I'm really interested in is getting a double-chambered harmonic sound.


An ocarina is a chamber; a whistle is a tube. The terminology can be inexact but the physics is distinct.

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:27 pm 
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Though come to think of it, this may be an ideal solution to making a playable instrument in that shape. If all that really matters in determining pitch is the total area of holes uncovered, the task of coming up with a playable scale is much easier. All you have to worry about is the hole size, not size+location.

Look up multi-chamber ocarinas.

Quote:
Some Ocarina makers increase the range by designing double- or triple-chambered ocarinas (sometimes simply referred to as double or triple ocarinas) tuned an octave or a tenth apart although some double ocarinas are not made to increase the range, but to play in harmony with the other chambers.

These double and triple ocarinas can also play chords. Different notes are produced by covering the holes, and by opening and closing more or less of the total hole area. The tone is then produced through the sound hole/embouchure. The tone can also be varied by changing blowing strength to bend pitch. [wiki]

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:51 pm 
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I've finally had time to make the new fipple and can produce two notes on an open-ended pipe. Tonight I might see what kind of results I can get with a y-shaped, single chambered ocarina design. (No harmony sound expected, but the easiest of the designs to tune and construct, and so a good place to start.)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:03 pm 
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Brief update: I was getting terribly difficult to define results using the Y-splitter and duct tape to seal it, so I took a step back and bought a simple T-connector for PVC, with interesting results. I have also rearranged the pieces so that the branches are at right angles instead with similar results.

Image

First off, capping either branch produces no sound with the new fipple design, so a forked ocarina seems to be out.

Not sure how this would be affected by a true Y shape, but here's what I found for a t-shaped instrument with a single fipple blowing air into two pipes.

1. I can produce a series of single notes by uncovering holes on either branch. I currently have two holes on one branch and one hole on the other.

2. The pitch seems to be determined by the distance from the airway, like a normal whistle flute. Except the effect is cumulative, too...if you uncover only one of the two centermost holes, then cover that one and play the other, you will get about the same note, as they are roughly the same distance from the fipple. But if you uncover both, the pitch goes up.

3. I can presently achieve four notes.

4. Surprisingly, since I didn't bother with precise placement or tuning, I can now play a brief riff from the musical Ragtime. :P

5. I can no longer achieve the higher/lower effect depending on how hard I blow, as I was able to when blowing down a straight piece of pipe with this fipple.

6. PVC collects a lot of condensation.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:04 pm 
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opera13 wrote:
2. The pitch seems to be determined by the distance from the airway, like a normal whistle flute. Except the effect is cumulative, too...if you uncover only one of the two centermost holes, then cover that one and play the other, you will get about the same note, as they are roughly the same distance from the fipple. But if you uncover both, the pitch goes up.
That's what I'd expect. With two branches, the pitch will be higher than you'd get if you had a single pipe shorter than the shortest branch. Two equal branches would, roughly speaking, produce about the same pitch as if you had only one branch, half as long.

I'm actually relieved to hear you're not getting two distinct pitches. That would have been harder to understand.

opera13 wrote:
5. I can no longer achieve the higher/lower effect depending on how hard I blow, as I was able to when blowing down a straight piece of pipe with this fipple.
Try again after moving the fipple and windway cover closer to the soundblade, making the window smaller. As noted above, your branched whistle will be playing a higher pitch than your straight pipe, which calls for a shorter window.

Thanks for doing the experiment.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:23 pm 
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opera13 wrote:
Brief update: I was getting terribly difficult to define results using the Y-splitter and duct tape to seal it, so I took a step back and bought a simple T-connector for PVC, with interesting results. I have also rearranged the pieces so that the branches are at right angles instead with similar results.


Have been watching this experiment with considerable interest -- I'll add my thanks for getting all hands on as well!

One thing you might consider looking into are central embouchure flutes like this. Baines has some very good information on these, and while you're attempting to make a "central embouchure whistle" I wonder if some of the same principles would apply.


Or like this "flutarina"; even though this flute maker is sadly mistaken if he believes he is ushering in a "new generation of wind instruments"!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:36 pm 
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Pretty woodworking on that flutarina.

Tumborough, no luck moving the fipple and windway cover closer to the soundblade. Then I get no sound. It seems very determined as to where it will be.

I wish I could do a proper test with a true Y-shaped connector, but they just don't make them for 1/2 inch pvc. I tried reassembling it with the too-small y-shaped splitter I have, with lots of tape to seals the joints, but it's not really working.

I guess the next thing to do is either carve a y-shaped connector, continuing development of the single-chambered flute, or start working on a double-chambered design.

I don't really understand though why capping the ends produces no sound with all holes covered. Shouldn't it be acting like an ocarina?

I wish 3D printing were cheaper...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:28 am 
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Oh, ok, so if I cover up all the holes on a normal recorder and stop the end it doesn't make a noise either. So I guess it shouldn't be acting like an ocarina...still a little confused by it. I guess there has to be a certain width to length ratio before it stops behaving as a tube and starts acting like a vessel?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:40 am 
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opera13 wrote:
I guess there has to be a certain width to length ratio before it stops behaving as a tube and starts acting like a vessel?


Hmm. Not for closed-end flutes you blow across, like a pan flute. I can't think of any closed-end fipple flutes, but there might be some.

I read through part one of Ocarina Physics, and from what I can see the volume of an ocarina chamber is defined only as area x height. There's no mention of a shape requirement. The ocarinist/physicist who wrote it was responding to comments as recently as this May, so you might try asking him.

Edited: in fact, in part two the author says:

Quote:
It doesn’t matter what shape the instrument is, giving ocarina makers the freedom for very artistic designs. You can have all kinds of shapes and sizes in a variety I haven’t seen in any other instrument.

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:59 pm 
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opera13 wrote:
Oh, ok, so if I cover up all the holes on a normal recorder and stop the end it doesn't make a noise either.



No, it'll make a sound. The pitch should be approximately an octave below the ordinary bell tone. This principle is what allows organ builders to produce very low pitch pipes that don't take up a lot of space or materials.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:56 pm 
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It's all in the angle of the airflow. Overtone flutes, pan pipes, beer bottles and cider jugs can all be made to resonate, but you have to blow them just right. Your first windway worked with a closed pipe but not open. Your new windway works with an open pipe but not closed.


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