Just Intonation Tuners Don't Match

[Cathy Wilde]

wondering if I've been driving people crazy all these years!

I hate to tell you this, Cathy, but that probably has nothing to do with your tuning.

Hahahahahahaha. You're in for it now, buddy.

[bensdad]

And if the well-tempered bodhran throw takes out your uncle,
that's relative pitch.

[Tom_S]

Apologies for ressurecting an old thread.

I'm trying to find a table of values for how many cents out each note on the scale should be for each note on the chanter.

I've got a Korg LC-120 tuner which you can program for different intonations. You enter in in +/- # cents for each note.

Most "Just Intonation" charts showing +/- cents for each note given that the tonic note is +0 cents of equal temperament. However, given that our tonic is D and we're tuning for A=440, it's the perfect 5th that is +0 cents, and the tonic would therefore be very slightly flat of equal temperament.

Maybe I'm being too pedantic...

[Calum]

It's easy enough to run up your own table in a spreadsheet, using the fact that

cents = 1200 * log2 (a/b)

Where a is the upper pitch, b is the lower pitch and log2 is log to the base 2. a/b you can find for each note from any just intonation article, and the offset you require is the difference between 100* semitones and the cents value you've just calculated.

I would set your root note to be in tune with an equal tempered scale, not the A, though the difference is small. You want to minimise the difference and setting your fifth to be equal doesn't do this.

[geoff wooff]

Apologies for ressurecting an old thread.

I'm trying to find a table of values for how many cents out each note on the scale should be for each note on the chanter.

I've got a Korg LC-120 tuner which you can program for different intonations. You enter in in +/- # cents for each note.

Most "Just Intonation" charts showing +/- cents for each note given that the tonic note is +0 cents of equal temperament. However, given that our tonic is D and we're tuning for A=440, it's the perfect 5th that is +0 cents, and the tonic would therefore be very slightly flat of equal temperament.

Maybe I'm being too pedantic...

Well, this can be a matter of both opinion and practicality and could be more complicated than your programable tuner will accomodate. There is also the question of note pitch variance with different fingerings.

Books on the subject;

Tuning and Temperament by J.Murray Barbour (ISBN 13: 978-0-486-43406-3)

Temperament by Stuart Isacoff (ISBN 978-0-571-23446-2)

How Equal Temperament ruined Harmony by Ross W.Duffin (ISBN 978-0-393-33420-3)

Personally I no longer refer to the tuning of the chanter as "Just Intonation"... it is closer to a Monochord tuning that I did discover noted down in the first of these books, but I don't have the time at present to search through and point you to the exact page.

If you just want the 'normal notes' then you could start with these déviations from EQ;

D = 0, E +4, F# -14, G -2, A +2, B -16 ,C -29 and C# -10..... of course , again this all dépends on fingerings and personal préférences.. prefer less diviation at F#, B and C... the C fingering giving harmonic flat seventh is fully forked... this allows one to obtain C# in a good place and to open the 'forking fingering' to get that Clancy sliding C coming through the EQ position.

Then there is all the sharps and flats to consider; is your F natural to be a flat seventh in the key of G or a perfect minor third to the Drone (D)... etc etc..........

There are several other usefull fingerings that can be allowed for... just dépends what you wish to actually do with your Tuner.

[Tom_S]

Thank you both for your replies!

Calum - I had actually made a spreadsheet with all the Hz values but your formula for cents is the missing ingredient. Thank you!

Geoff - that's a really really interesting post and gives me some very cool further reading - plus I get the added bonus of Mr Wooff himself answering my post! Swoon!!

Thanks again

[Ted]

I use a tuner to set my low D on the chanter and use my ear for the rest. These days even fiddle players are tuning all their stings with the tuner. It is too easy to "play to the tuner", meaning you adjust pressure or tension to influence the tuner and can end up not so perfectly in tune. Better to train your ear than rely solely on tuners IMHO.

[geoff wooff]

I use a tuner to set my low D on the chanter and use my ear for the rest. These days even fiddle players are tuning all their stings with the tuner. It is too easy to "play to the tuner", meaning you adjust pressure or tension to influence the tuner and can end up not so perfectly in tune. Better to train your ear than rely solely on tuners IMHO.

Absolutely correct Ted! My wife tunes her fiddle's open strings to the notes I give her from my pipes, or my concertina (which is not tuned in ET either)... that way the open strings are not out of tune with my noises.. she tunes the other notes by fingering (there is a reason why fiddles don't have fretts) !!

It annoys the (rude word) out of me when people come into a session with their little clip on tuners attached to their instruments..... BUT it has to be said that, in general, there is a great improvement to overall tuning at sessions.

Tom_S ,
you live in Adelaide, so why not talk to Craig Fischer.. he knows more about this than the rest of us put together and he only lives up the street.

Cheers,
Geoff.

PS; I have several tuners with a programable function but I only tried it once... I prefer to visually see what way the notes are and let my poor old head work out what is to be done.

[Ted]

A meter is essential when voicing and tuning a new instrument. One gets their hearing "fatigued" while doing this and it gets hard to tell pitch by ear. You can only do this for a while and then take a break and do something else to allow your hearing to recover.

[pancelticpiper]

I just use a regular tuner, and have everything in tune to that.

Most of the time I'm playing "legit" gigs, where I'm playing with orchestral instruments, and I have to have every note exactly in tune to Equal Temperament.

Somebody happened to record my playing along with pipe organ, and you can hear that the chanter is in strict ET and is in tune with the accompaniment. Maybe it's just me, but in my opinion a chanter tuned like this sounds fine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGGxt19ksg

Oddly, I can switch on the drones and every note blends... I think it's just a matter of blowing the notes into tune, which is pretty much automatic. The exception perhaps is B, where I definitely like the note to be at ET pitch even when playing solo with the drones (instead of -16 cents where it should be in JI).

I'm far more aware of the Equal Temperament/ Just Intonation dichotomy when playing Highland pipes in an orchestral setting. That flat 7th at -31 cents (the Harmonic Minor 7th position) just doesn't work with the orchestra/pipe organ/brass and I have to bring that note up. Also the JI Major 6th at -16 cents needs to be brought up a tad. Thing is, to the drones the note is the Major 6th but the accompaniment might be playing a chord where that note is the root (in which case it should be at +/-0 cents) or, even, a chord where that note is the 5th (in which case it ought to be at +2 cents!).

Stuff like that is the very reason for ET.

Ah Ted when you tune up an entire Highland pipe band... then your ears REALLY need a rest!

What many pipe bands do is use an electronic tuner to establish the baseline pitch, the drone pitch. Then one-by-one each piper's drones are tuned with the tuner to the baseline pitch, and each note of his chanter is tuned by ear to blend with the drones (to strict JI). Pipe bands have found that tuning each note of the scale to the drones by ear is far faster and easier than trying to tune each note of the scale to a bagpipe-specific tuner which has the JI scale built into it. If you don't have a good enough ear to tune each note of the chanter to the drones, you shouldn't have the job of tuning the band!

[geoff wooff]

I just use a regular tuner, and have everything in tune to that.

Most of the time I'm playing "legit" gigs, where I'm playing with orchestral instruments, and I have to have every note exactly in tune to Equal Temperament.

Somebody happened to record my playing along with pipe organ, and you can hear that the chanter is in strict ET and is in tune with the accompaniment. Maybe it's just me, but in my opinion a chanter tuned like this sounds fine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGGxt19ksg

Oddly, I can switch on the drones and every note blends... I think it's just a matter of blowing the notes into tune, which is pretty much automatic. The exception perhaps is B, where I definitely like the note to be at ET pitch even when playing solo with the drones (instead of -16 cents where it should be in JI).

I'm far more aware of the Equal Temperament/ Just Intonation dichotomy when playing Highland pipes in an orchestral setting. That flat 7th at -31 cents (the Harmonic Minor 7th position) just doesn't work with the orchestra/pipe organ/brass and I have to bring that note up. Also the JI Major 6th at -16 cents needs to be brought up a tad. Thing is, to the drones the note is the Major 6th but the accompaniment might be playing a chord where that note is the root (in which case it should be at +/-0 cents) or, even, a chord where that note is the 5th (in which case it ought to be at +2 cents!).

Stuff like that is the very reason for ET.

Ah Ted when you tune up an entire Highland pipe band... then your ears REALLY need a rest!

What many pipe bands do is use an electronic tuner to establish the baseline pitch, the drone pitch. Then one-by-one each piper's drones are tuned with the tuner to the baseline pitch, and each note of his chanter is tuned by ear to blend with the drones (to strict JI). Pipe bands have found that tuning each note of the scale to the drones by ear is far faster and easier than trying to tune each note of the scale to a bagpipe-specific tuner which has the JI scale built into it. If you don't have a good enough ear to tune each note of the chanter to the drones, you shouldn't have the job of tuning the band!

Perhaps you would explain what "Legit" gigs are please ?

It almost sounds like an insult to the rest of us who, because we seldom play in ET, are playing Illegitimate music.

I also play music in ET, though never on the pipes, and I usually make chanters that are tuned closer to ET than the JI values.
Here in France some efforts have been made to popularise certain types of bagpipes by producing chanters that are virtually ET .. It is after all a country that is close to Accordion Heaven. My wife plays one of these 'Europipes' and we play in a couple of Bands... with accordions... It is one of the reasons I have now stopped playing the Hurdy Gurdy... because I just cannot stomach it when tuned in ET.

I feel sure there are plenty of U Pipers who play in ET and because our ears are bombarded with it every time we turn on the radio ,most of us don't find it a pain in the ear .. it is normal.

It is great that you are doing this type of work Pancelticpiper.. it does give Joe Public a chance to hear the Pipes in a fashion that he (she) is familiar with.

[Lorenzo]

I've always been skeptical of tuning uilleann pipes perfectly down to the very cent +/- 0. So, I decided to get out the tuner I've used for pianos for many years, and see just how stable a reed and bag really are. Strapping on the Rogge C set, I played the F note (G on a D chanter) as steady as I could, with medium bag pressure, and set the dial to zero. Then, I played the note harder, with more bag pressure, and had to dial back to minus 4 to get the rotating light to remain still. Then I lightened up, still getting a solid tone on the F note, and had to dial up plus 5 to get the rotating light to remain steady. I'm using a great reed made two years ago by Alan Burton...who makes very solid reeds. So, just as I had suspected, a good reed in a good chanter, with about 50% humidity (always) in the room, can vary 9 cents...depending on bag pressure. YMMV. Some chanter/reed combinations don't require any pressure change with the bag to get the upper octave, but many do. I didn't experiment with that.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Sometimes, I wonder why there is a preponderance of queries regarding just intonation, electronic tuners, tempered tuning, specific Hertz for certain notes, etc. I have usually tuned my chanter's G, B, and d, (along with the drones and regulators,) to a Marine Band or Special 20 G harmonica, and I occasionally check the accuracy of the A with a 440 fork. Works great. You can feel it. You can hear it. If your local box player has good reeds, tune to him. What do you want to do? Watch blinking lights? Close your eyes and become transported. It's not a particle accelerator. It's about music, not engineering.

Thanks, Mark, well put. Tuning up pipes for me is a feeling you get as much as anything; when you add in the regulators it's very much an overall sensation you strive for, difficult to put into words. Kirk Lynch once wrote a piece about pipemaking and the "rolling" sound of the F# against the D, that was an excellent word to describe the feeling you get when things are well in alignment.

I never watch needles jump around, a pitch pipe does it for me - I like the Farleys Pocket Tones::



About $20. I only use the A or D tones for the pipes of course. Tune the regulator notes to the corresponding ones on the chanter. Then play a chord and see if it all blends sweetly.

My fiddling friends love their little Snarks and Korgs too. Had a Snark but have lost it and am back to just tuning the banjo by ear. Also the banjo-mandolin, which is what I play when I have the pipes on and someone starts up a fiddle tune(s). As stated in another thread the greatest tuning aid I've found for the pipes in noisy sessions is a stethoscope, thanks again to whoever suggested that, it's a real lifesaver.

[5littlepeople]

[ Thread revival ]

very grateful for any help with tunning to Just Intonation; was hoping to use the clear tune app standard just intonation setting 430hertz key of C (don't need any more keys) do I understand correctly that I can not rely on this app to give me the correct setting. I am not good with numbers so was hoping to rely on a tunner? Any suggestions
Much appreciated

Tom

[MTGuru]

Welcome, Tom. Without re-reading this whole thread, a few questions:

o What makes you think the Clear Tune app is unreliable?

o Why are you tuning to low pitch A=430?

o Do you have a C chanter? Key of C intonation would normally be for a C chanter. If you have a D chanter, you should probably be using a D intonation.

o You do know that Just Intonation is not one thing, right? It's an approach to tuning, not a specific tuning. There are different n-limit intonations. And if your chanter is set up for a different JI from your tuner's JI scheme, they won't match. Choose the tuner's matching scheme (if it allows that), or be prepared for discrepancies.

o Are you actually trying to intonate a chanter, or just tune it to pitch? If the latter, just pick a reference pitch - typically A or G - and tune to that. Unless your chanter's intonation is faulty, you shouldn't have to worry about it.