Goldie / Overton clogging problem (and solution)

[Mikethebook]

Sorry. Yes, I was repeating you in a different way.

[retired]

This is great stuff - I've had my share of clogging with Aluminum whistles. What I'm getting from this is Colin is using the toothpaste ( a very mild abrasive) to make the windway very smooth and then using the soapy water mix for it's sheeting action, as it probably contains more surfactants than the toothpaste. Hopefully the combo of the two will be the ticket .

[Mikethebook]

Not quite. I don't use soap at all now. The toothpaste has more than enough in the way of surfactants to provide the sheeting action, as well as smoothing the surface over time. Read the ingredients of your toothpaste and you will find it has the same surfactants as soap. Indeed I believe the toothpaste creates the "sheet," if you like, more efficiency than soap. I may be wrong but when Colin uses soap I don't think it is with surfactants in mind, but merely for cleaning the whistle.

[maki]

I predict fewer used Goldies on the market.
You won't see no mine for sure!

[Cayden]

Is there any way, this thread could be renamed for the sake of other searching in the future? It seems to be much less about dental floss now.

Maybe we could call it a "whistle COLINoscopy!

Cayden

[Cayden]

Cayden, I will be curious to hear how you get on with the Goldie low G since the windway must be shallower than on the low D so I wonder how easily you will be able to run a stick though it. Good luck!

Mike,
I treated the Goldie / Overton low G earlier today. The only read deviations from that used by MTGuru was that i used very thin plastic card stock cut into semi flexible strips from a hotel key card and a different brand of toothpaste.

I have played the Goldie since and it is good to go! I agree with Maki, the used market for these instruments will decrease in the number of Goldie's, Kerry's, Chieftains and other similar instruments offered for sale causing a spike in the prices of those pre-owned whistles made available for sale.

Cayden

[Mikethebook]

Hi Cayden,
Thanks for that. Good to hear that its possible with shallower windways too. I'm wanting a low F sometime. As for the prophecies, it may take a while for Goldies and similar aluminium whistles to lose the clogging stigma but you and Maki may well be right.

Mike

[MTGuru]

So what is going on here, and why does the toothpaste work?

The phenomenon of nucleation in physical state transitions (solid-liquid-gas) is well documented. For example, snowflakes require microscopic particles of ice or other solids as loci (sites) for water vapor to freeze around. Boiling water requires microscopic irregularities in the surface of the container for bubbles of steam to form.

In the whistle windway, microscopic irregularities in the metallic surface form nucleation sites for the moisture of your breath to condense into droplets, and particles of oxide may be ideal. Remember that your breath is 95% humid at 35C, so at the lower temperature of even a warmed-up windway your airstream is completely saturated.

It's primarily the polishing effect of toothpaste at work, smoothing the surface and removing nucleation particles of Al₂O₃ - which is extremely hard and persistent (corundum is 9.0 on the Mohs scale, and used for sandpaper). Toothpaste contains mild abrasives, such as diatomaceous earth (calcium carbonate). And toothpaste is demonstrably effective as a metal polish; you can also use it to polish the outside of your whistle.

The effect of the surfactant (often sodium lauryl sulfate = Duponol) in toothpaste is probably real but small. The amounts are tiny, certainly less than pure Duponol. And if coating the clogging windway with pure Duponol doesn't work (and it doesn't), the residual amount from toothpaste which you rinse away thoroughly after treatment is bound to be negligible. Not that there's any harm in reapplying Duponol or dish detergent after the toothpaste.

The question is then why some Goldies experience the oxidation clogging problem and others don't. The answer is probably as variable as the individual player, the individual whistle and its history, and the environment in which it is used.

Individual body chemistries differ and may promote different degrees of windway oxidation. The regularity with which the whistle is played (and cleaned) may vary. The machining and the amount of polishing applied by Colin before releasing a whistle may vary. And the environmental conditions in which the whistle is kept and played may vary greatly. For example, coastal San Diego is definitely not northern Scotland.

As it is, both my Goldies were purchased used from other Chiffers. Both were, IIRC, sold originally to the retail market and not delivered directly to the customer from Colin. In the case of my Low D, I know that the shop was Song of the Sea in coastal Bar Harbor, Maine - where it may have spent considerable time in damp salt air before traveling to a different US location and eventually to me.

Without accounting for all those factors, I don't think you can generalize from one's own collection of Goldies or one's experience with them, with respect to clogging. The all-aluminum windway is, by its nature, prone to oxidation and clogging sooner or later. But knowing there's a simple solution goes a long way to allaying the problem and putting the clogging debate to rest.

[Cayden]

MTGuru,
Great post.

Cayden

[Mikethebook]

My sentiments exactly.

[narrowdog]

and I thought I was getting scientific buy leaving my doors open
Yep great post MT Guru

[Goldie]

Hi all and sorry for not chiming in earlier and help out but I have been working non-stop and had not much time to get on the computer.

A lot has been said on how to clean out a whistle which is an important thing to know. When a whistle is new and goes out to someone then there should not be any clogging problems as long as the whistle is played as it needs to be played, i.e. a harder blower needs more constant pressure than a softer blower.

In my experience there is not a big clogging issue with the whistles I make. If there is a clogging issue from a new instrument then more often it is from an inexperienced player than the whistle and sometimes the whistle just does not suit the player. If the whistle is second hand when it arrives who knows what it has gone through?

On an all metal whistle putting the finger over the vent and blowing hard a few times should warm up the windway enough to stop any condensation until you stop playing. If you then leave the instrument for a minute or more depending on room circumstances it is always good to give it another quick blow through before you start playing again as it may have cooled down too much.

Q: How often would I clean out a whistle head? A: When it needs it.
It will vary from player to player as some people are clean players and others seem to leave all kinds of debris inside the whistle. I had one extraordinary case of a chap buying a Low D and 2 years later it was totally clogged up and not playing well at all. When I started cleaning the windway what came out looked like a huge pile of brown diarrea. It turned out that he went to two sessions a week and ate a bag of jelly babies at each one. With all the sugar in his mouth it completely coated the windway. Same thing can happen if you drink sugar drinks i.e. coke, lemonade etc. This is why it always turns my stomach when I hear of people sucking back the moisture from the windway of their instruments while playing.... As already mentioned a tiny spec of something in the windway can be enough for the humidity to hold on to and build up.

When I am making a whistle I do use the already described "tooth paste technique" as a final clean and always make sure they do not clog. I do understand that some people are extremly wet players and in this case it may be that a softer blower is the better whistle for them.

Again I don't actually see that there is a "problem with clogging" as long as you warm the windway up properly. If you blow onto cold glass with warm humid breath you will get condensation, if the glass is warm enough and you blow onto it nothing will happen.

If anyone has a whistle that does not play as it should do, I would hope they contact me and let me know so I can help.

Cheers
Colin

[alanng]

Gel type toothpaste ?

Gel toothpaste is working for me (definitely better than no toothpaste - I haven't compared it to non-gel toothpaste, though).

Also I can share that a flat-end toothpick works just as well as a popsicle stick, but toothpicks are a lot easier to find in stores and a lot cheaper, so you can use up a few during the cleaning process of a single whistle - the wood grain certainly does pick up crud effectively!