Feedback For Learning Progress Apreciated

[German Whistler]

I would like and apreciate some feedback
Its now 5 Months since i started to play the Penny Whistle.
I "know" 11 Tunes which i can play by memory and some few more, which i cant play by memory only, but can play by sheetmusic (which i did learn to read as well, since may 2012 - well i still read it very slow and have to learn it much better)

After a "break" because i wasnt able to play my penny whistles, because of an airway operation, for a while, i did start again practising in the last weeks and i finaly start to feel not like a complete beginner anymore. That means, i find it easier to learn new tunes and started to like how i play.
I feel like i did take a first step.

Anyway, as learning without a teacher, just with books and online tutorials,...
Feedback is needed
So whoever would like to listen and tell me his/her thoughts about it, here are 3 recordings:

1.Scarborough Fair New recording from 2 weeks ago!
Listen: Scarborough Fair - Waltons Brass D Penny Whistle
Some of you may have listend to my first recording of this tune, posted in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89148&start=15 , and i hope you can see a development.
- Better tempo i hope
- still some "mistakes" but i did take the first recording for a reason of naturality.
- i couldnt resist of adding echos it sounds nicer i belive
- i still had dificulties with the breath and tounge controll on the Waltons, specialy in the lower tones it has so much "chiff" when tounge it to hard and just a litle bit to fast air comes out, it seams to squeak at the beginning of the tones.
See this thread about it viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89415
But the more control of this chiffy little beast i get so more i like my waltons for its sound.


2.Down by the Sally Gardens
Down by the Sally Gardens - Waltons D Brass Penny Whistle
I did add some echo again
and think i can controll the chiff of the waltons better now

3. Last but not least, maybe i shouldnt post this at all
A little morning improvisation just playing along
spontanuesly improvisation - Clarke Penny Whistle - Original - D
maybe to sloppy for the good taste of some members here but it was fun and i did work on a part of that "melody" since this (recorded 2 weeks ago) and maybe one day it will sound realy nice

Thoughts, critic, opinions, hints and tips, own recordings for comparing, ... every feeddback is apreciated.

[megapop]

Hey! Well, it seems you are tonguing really a lot. Of course, it's always a matter taste, but the Irish style of playing the whistle (if not any wind instrument) would involve more slurring (some hardcore traditional whistle players don't tongue at all). I personally do some tonguing from time to time, but only to put some special emphasis on notes, as the distinctive Irish whistle sound comes from all those cuts and strikes. As you are playing this slow stuff, it should be quite easy to integrate this; I realized one or two cuts in "down by the salley gardens", so apparently you are already capable of it.

Arrgh, and get rid of that cheesy reverb!

EDIT: Just remembered a recent thread about tonguing (or not) here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89858

[German Whistler]

Thanks for your feedback

Hey! Well, it seems you are tonguing really a lot...

yes i do tounge a lot
and funny is, that i didnt like it at all at the beginning but started after i was told here at c&f that i should do so as a beginner ... and now i really do like it

of course i know to slur and i also DO like it but
- scarborough fair i do like tounged, but i still dont like it slured, maybe that will change with the time and maybe i just have to hear a nice slured version, never did.
- i did slur several times at the sally gardens, didnt I?

on the sally gardens that was, (how you call them?) trills not cuts (probably very unusual but i do like them a lot and have to try not to do it to much)
i do like those trills but have problems to like cuts and rolls (?) even if i know that they are typical .. sometimes they fitt very well but i realy have to get used to them before i can say i do like them
maybe i just should start to use them myself

...Just remembered a recent thread about tonguing (or not) here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89858

funny is that Peter the thread starter was the one who told me (in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89148) to tounge everything as a beginner, but it was specialy because i did "huff and puff" as he calls it
maybe its time to change that again, stop to tounge that much and slur more and also start with those cuts

but i think i will always like tounging a lot ... but as being just beginning and have to devellop even my taste ...who knows

[Peter Duggan]

EDIT: Just remembered a recent thread about tonguing (or not) here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89858

Not so much about 'tonguing (or not)' as bringing out the natural phrasing in a way that's well-nigh impossible (despite what 'some hardcore traditional whistle players' might aim for, do or even do well) without appropriate tonguing. But then 1. I wouldn't tongue the whole of Scarborough Fair myself, 2. I had good reasons for suggesting GW did back then, and 3. there's only limited point in discussing that (English) tune in terms of 'the Irish style'.

funny is that Peter the thread starter was the one who told me (in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=89148) to tounge everything as a beginner, but it was specialy because i did "huff and puff" as he calls it

Aye, I did (and still think it was a good move at the time), but I wouldn't ask me anything right now because I'm busy tearing my (decades-old) 'style' apart and asking others!

[megapop]

there's only limited point in discussing that (English) tune in terms of 'the Irish style'.

Haha, that's true!

However, my particular point of view concerning tonguing may well be influenced by the fact that I learned whistle-playing just the other way round. I think I had read or heard somewhere that tonguing the (Irish) whistle is kind of worst heresy; but listening to records and hearing those masters doing some tonguing from time to time (which does a great effect when applied sparsely, in my humble opinion), I added this technique to my playing later, when I was already slurring simply everything. Without question, that's not the ideal way, too. These are the mistakes you make when teaching yourself.

Also, I apologize for misinterpreting you slurring/tonguing thread. It was a kind of a quick shot, like "wasn't there something about tonguing recently?"...

on the sally gardens that was, (how you call them?) trills not cuts (probably very unusual but i do like them a lot and have to try not to do it to much)

I just thought those figures you call 'trills' (if we are speaking about the same...?) were meant to be casadhs, for example in the very 3rd and 4th bars, where you play something like
... B4 {AB}A2 dA | B2 AF {EF}E3D ...
Wouldn't a trill involve more grace-notes, like striking or cutting more often on the same note? This may be splitting hairs now, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, just tongue the hell out of your whistle. As already I said, it's a matter of taste, and again only my opinion. I'm very heavily influenced by the Irish traditional music, and therefore very much an advocate of slurring, cutting, striking, rolling, cranning and all that.

[fearfaoin]

I enjoyed hearing you speak at the beginning of the
Sally Gardens track. Please tell me you do voiceover
work.

I understand the temptation to add echo (though you
should probably start with reverb if you really have to).
But it really makes it hard to discern your technique,
esp. your tone.

Your timing sounds pretty good. There's a place or two
where you rush a few notes, but mostly it flows well.
I don't feel there's too much tonguing, but it's hard to
tell. Maybe a tune with fewer long notes would be easier
to comment on since there's more note transitions.

[Infernaltootler]

I also liked your voice on Sally Gardens. Made me think of Hollywood block busters or Liam Neeson.

The timing wasn't bad at all and I thought you put emotion into it.

I reckon you could isolate your ornaments and give them a darn good practise to tighten them up but otherwise wow, you are doing really well.

Shouldn't need reverb, but it's fun to try these things.

[German Whistler]

first of all, @ all:
SORRY i was busy
i do apreciate your answeres a lot but was too busy to answere
i was just a few times online here and also have to say i was busy with an other instrunent in the last days (got myself an e-guitar )

Anyway

@ Peter

Aye, I did (and still think it was a good move at the time), but I wouldn't ask me anything right now because I'm busy tearing my (decades-old) 'style' apart and asking others!

i know BUT i am sure you still can tell a beginner many helpfull things
every statement from you will still be apreciated even if you are asking others right now for statements


@ megapop
what about the first tones, do you "huff and puff " them as peter calls it or do you at least tounge that ones?

I just thought those figures you call 'trills' (if we are speaking about the same...?) were meant to be casadhs, for example in the very 3rd and 4th bars, where you play something like
... B4 {AB}A2 dA | B2 AF {EF}E3D ...
Wouldn't a trill involve more grace-notes, like striking or cutting more often on the same note? This may be splitting hairs now, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, just tongue the hell out of your whistle. As already I said, it's a matter of taste, and again only my opinion. I'm very heavily influenced by the Irish traditional music, and therefore very much an advocate of slurring, cutting, striking, rolling, cranning and all that.

i am not sure about what is a "trill" i thought its the right word
let me explain what i do
if i for example play that double "d" in the sally gardens i do not lift one finger of the left hand (that would be a cut?)
i lift the r3 finger itself, the one making the "d" i lift it to the "e" (short as possible) and quickly come back to the "d", sometimes i do that more than just one time and i thought thats a trill?!=?

i do like cuts and rolls and all this when experianced players play faster tunes, but when i try it myself or hear other beginners doing it in slower tunes it doesnt sopund nice to me, but i do like the sound of lifting the lowest finger itself i do not like these cuts by fingers more above

hope you understand what i want to say?
anyway, what is it called like what i do`? i guess its untypical?

about the tounging, i didnt like it at all first but now i really do, i am sure my taste will still devellop and there may be a day when i dont tounge at all, but some songs just feel good be tounged

@ fearfaoin

I enjoyed hearing you speak at the beginning of the
Sally Gardens track. Please tell me you do voiceover
work...

thanks and sorry, no workover, i add echo to my whistle but dont ad effects on my voice

Your timing sounds pretty good. There's a place or two
where you rush a few notes, but mostly it flows well.
I don't feel there's too much tonguing, but it's hard to
tell. Maybe a tune with fewer long notes would be easier
to comment on since there's more note transitions.

i am glad that my timing isnt bad, because i never tap to the beat, i must change that i guess
a tune with fewer long notes? i will see what i have
but not realy much where i slur a lot these days, ... anyway always learning new ones and i will post new links when i have new recordings
maybe i will even not add an echo

@infernaltoolter
thank you, i like it when people like my voice and sounding like hollywood isnt bad i guess

...
I reckon you could isolate your ornaments and give them a darn good practise to tighten them up but otherwise wow, you are doing really well...

i dont understand
how can i do that?

thanks to all, and sorry because i did answere so late, but first the work and than a new instrument ... that kept me away for a while, ... guess you understand that

[Infernaltootler]

Isolating ornaments like cuts and rolls.

What I mean is to break them down and really really concentrate on them for 5 minutes a day or however much you can stand. At first just practise cutting and cutting until it is getting faster and faster. Try cutting every note that you can and really concentrate on it, just 5 mins a day makes a big difference because it builds the muscles in your fingers and the muscle memory.

If you want to practise rolls you need to do them on their own up and down the scale getting them quick and precise. I practise mine in isolation every day. Some are easier than others and I have to put in extra time on 'A' rolls for instance just to keep them quick.

Honestly, I found it helps such a lot. The music then plays much easier. It was a turning point for me when I started doing this.

you can apply it to anything you want to master. 5 mins a day, when you were going to play the thing anyway isn't much to ask but the returns are great.

[German Whistler]

Now i understand

Yes i will do that, but a little bit later
I did start with a german tutorial and changed to the bill ochs tutorial, and i try to moove trough it step by step but am quite at the beginning again after the change .... right now i am trying to get the sheetmusic into my head and play by reading the dots
i do practise a lot every day but right now i concentrate more on "dots to finger" and also on "ear to finger" connections

when its time to moove on to ornaments i will practise like you said

[megapop]

Isolating ornaments like cuts and rolls.
[...]
you can apply it to anything you want to master. 5 mins a day, when you were going to play the thing anyway isn't much to ask but the returns are great.

I really concur with Infernaltootler. 5 minutes a day won't hurt, you can still spend most time in learning the tunes themselves. And when you are practising this simultaneously, those techniques will automatically find their way into your playing; otherwise, it will be much more effort to apply them later, when you are already used to play the tunes without them.

Just from my own experience, but putting ornamentation off too long is really not such a good idea.

On the ornaments themselves again:
It doesn't matter which finger you use for a cut; and a sequence of cuts on the same note would be a crann. You say that you try to play just the "lift" note as short as possible, I think that's definitively characteristic for a cut; a trill would be more like frequently playing both notes involved as (equally) short as possible. Oh man, that all sounds really pedantic now, but we should just avoid misunderstandings. Maybe another ABC example might be helpful; consider a half note on the D, first as a crann that devides it into eighth notes, then as a trill:
L: 1/8
[1 {A}D {G}D {F}D {E} D
[2 D/E/D/E/ D/E/D/E/
(or even D/4E/4D/4E/4....)

Oh, and of course I'm tonguing too; usually the first note after taking breath, and sometimes for accentuation.

[German Whistler]

it is not pedantic at all
and i agree, you are right, its important to use the right words
the problem is just when someone dont know them ... so thank you for the explanation

i will definatly do the practise but i also will wait (just) a little bit longer
because:
as i understood it, bill ochs is recomending strongly, not to start with those ornaments to early
and also, for me, at this stage, it is realy important to learn reading those dots fluently and that is why i am very slow right now with his book even if i already can play several tunes which will come later in that book ... but for me it is important to be able playing by ear and sheet music

untill now i learnd by transcribing into numbers and than by memory, i guess its good to be able playing by memory but dots and ear too
ornaments must come later for me
but then i will record it and post something with ornements here

by the way, i love to do what you call trills, but i try not to do it because otherwise i do it verry much (and long) and i guess others wouldnt like it that way i do it, sooooooo much

[Infernaltootler]

I can tell you are really work hard at this already.

I do hope that you are also trying to learn by ear as well as by dots.

I don't want to start a massive ear versus dots debate, but I would suggest the line of least resistance is to try and do both. Try and learn a tune or two simply by listening to a recording. Maybe a nice gentle waltz.

It makes such a world of difference when you learn by ear. Mind you, having said that, you have to be able to hear the tune.

I went to a workshop at the weekend and everyone was playing the tune together straight off from the ABCs provided by the tutor. I couldn't play anything because I simply couldn't hear the tune being played properly, it was such a racket.

[German Whistler]

Yes i learn also to play by ear, just simple tunes but i do
and its easier for me as reading those dots fluent
the easiest is when i transcribe dots into numbers but second easy is by ear for me, so right now i am working on all but mostly on which i am having the most problems with, ... the dots.... and that make my progress so slow

additional i am also starting with music theory, you see i take it serious

by the way i did learn a waltz, some month ago, i guess 3 i went crazy and tried to learn johnny mickeys polka, never was able to play it in full speed but at 75% and i am sure i play it very bad because its not e tune for a beginner, so i stoped practising it but i could play it ..... but should i record it? it probabbly will not be good -)