Irish? Scottish? Let's just call it "Scirish"

[Peter Duggan]

...but possibly the Americans have accidentally got it right.

That's an interesting point of view. How do you mean?

Think it's explained by what follows. Or, as argued by the sleeve notes to Carnlough Bay (aka The Road to Dundee) on Battlefield Bands's 1986 On The Rise album:

Which of the two came first we don't know, but as Scottish and Irish music could be justifiably seen as being two sides of the same coin anyway, we don't think it matters.

On which note (heading off at a slight tangent to the OP) I must say I sometimes struggle with the overbearing 'Irishness' of C&F (folks apologising for discussing other stuff as if 'ITM' was the only true trad. etc.) when there's actually remarkably little set down to justify that...

So see the Chiff & Fipple home page? It says:

Welcome to Chiff & Fipple, the ultimate guide to

the instrument known as the tinwhistle, pennywhistle, Irish whistle, or just plain .whistle.

These terms are, for our purposes, interchangeable & refer to a simple 6-hole end-blown flute popular in many lands, perhaps most famously in Ireland, England, and Scotland.

And see the forums? Loads of them, with exactly four mentioning 'Irish' in their titles and/or descriptions:

• Flute Forum
  The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
• Uilleann Pipe forum
  A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
• Irish Traditional Music Forum
  For all instruments -- please read F.A.Q. before posting.
• Irish Language
  Tá Failte Romhat! For all conversation about the Irish language. Scots Gaelic discussion welcome.

So please don't get me wrong because I'm neither having a go at Irish music (which I love both for itself and as the flip side to our Scottish 'coin') nor saying 'Irish' Fairs should be a celebration of all things Scottish (which they clearly shouldn't), but just (well, I dunno just what, but it's been bothering me for a while and this seemed like a half chance to bring it up)...

[MTGuru]

I don't find the Irish wearing kilts any stranger than them playing our tunes (or versions of them) or vice versa.

But the people we're talking about are not wearing kilts as a visual shout-out to the cross-pollination of Irish and Scottish traditions. They're flogging them as an icon of the American perception of typical contemporary Irishness, as a modern statement of tradition on par with shamrocks and leprechauns. And as a sign that the punk or rock or Celtoid music they're playing must be Irish, because bold, angry or rebellious Irish yobs wear kilts, of course. Or something like that.

Very true, it's only social entertainment, not nuanced historical education. But I'm not sure that these groups making a muddle of things for low-information American audiences does anyone any great service.

[bogman]

Yes MTGuru, that's why I mentioned earlier that this thread was possibly more for folk living in America. I don't know about these Fairs and can't really comment, though I did play at a big Irish festival over there - it was nice and friendly but I found the whole thing a bit odd if I was being honest. - Not a criticism, I understand people wanting to be close to their perceived roots.

[Nanohedron]

So please don't get me wrong because I'm neither having a go at Irish music (which I love both for itself and as the flip side to our Scottish 'coin') nor saying 'Irish' Fairs should be a celebration of all things Scottish (which they clearly shouldn't), but just (well, I dunno just what, but it's been bothering me for a while and this seemed like a half chance to bring it up)...

To be honest, I think it was the Riverdance craze (yes, it's true) that got the whole Irish-directed thing going in the first place here at C&F. Add to that the near-total dieoff of the music that was rescued by the skin of its teeth in the 1970s revival, further include the great numbers of Americans who lay claim to Irish heritage who have seen how it can fade away but want to retain something of it, and a certain amount of focus arising from that sense of embattlement tends to dig in very strongly.

There are those who would make a political issue of it (present company excepted, I am happy to say ), but I think it's misdirected, unhelpful, and contrary to the intended ethos conceived for C&F from the beginning. Nevertheless, the Irish thing will probably retain its status here as (so I want to think of it) first among equals. It's how this whole website all started, after all.

[highland-piper]

Did you know that the line of Utilikilt originally designed for construction work had stylish rivet/grommet thingies in front, right where one's tender bits are? For those going "regimental", a few hot sunny days were enough to impress upon the maker a very practical reason to rethink that aspect of the design.

I do remember the stylish rivets, but I was not aware they went through to the inside. Yikes!

[Nanohedron]

Did you know that the line of Utilikilt originally designed for construction work had stylish rivet/grommet thingies in front, right where one's tender bits are? For those going "regimental", a few hot sunny days were enough to impress upon the maker a very practical reason to rethink that aspect of the design.

I do remember the stylish rivets, but I was not aware they went through to the inside. Yikes!

Yes, there were stories about unpleasant burning surprises and the crimp they can put on one's ability to get the job done well. But I don't have this on personal authority, so bear in mind that I'm just repeating what I heard.

[highland-piper]

But the people we're talking about are not wearing kilts as a visual shout-out to the cross-pollination of Irish and Scottish traditions. They're flogging them as an icon of the American perception of typical contemporary Irishness, as a modern statement of tradition on par with shamrocks and leprechauns.

Are you sure? I have a lot of friends who would wear them to such an event to show their kindred spirit. Sort of like how if I went to see a Big 10 team play an SEC team I might wear my Tennessee hat. It wouldn't be because I was confused and thought my Tennessee hat was an icon of Alabama -- it's just that I want them to beat Ohio as much as they want to beat Ohio

And I'd probably have some interesting conversations with some of them as a result.

If I was wearing my blue denim kilt (which I don't think is a symbol of Scotland) I might be inclined to talk with some other fellow wearing a similar garment. I tend to wear it with combat boots and Hawaiian shirts too. That probably doesn't make any sense to most people, but it's part of the culture of us who camp at Scottish games. Hard to explain now that I'm trying. Come visit sometime. We're good, fun people.

[highland-piper]

I actually just thought of a great analogy that illustrates what I was trying to get at. Amongst my friends who go to the Scottish Games, there are two "trends" that I have seen developing over the last decade.

Belly dancers, and hula hoops.

These two things obviously have nothing to do with Scotland. That doesn't matter. They are part of the culture of the events, which as I previously mentioned, are primarily social gatherings. So we do things we enjoy doing, just as people have at like social gatherings all through the ages.

[Nanohedron]

Belly dancers...

They're like a plague, aren't they. For parity's sake I want to see them turn up at the local Swedish festivals and Native American powwows, too, if they haven't done so already.

[MTGuru]

Are you sure?

No, I'm never sure.

I don't think we disagree, because I'm not talking about Scottish games or events.

I'm thinking of those performers, yer local folkies or rockers who don kilts and bodhráns to belt out bad Clancy Brothers / Flogging Molly / Chieftains covers at specifically Irish bars and fests. They're just appealing to audience (and promoter) expectations. But where did those expectations come from? Bill Whelan?

Not that selectively commercializing culture mash-ups to feed the distinct American appetite for a particular sort of ethnic consumerism is anything new. But Gresham's Law of pop culture, the banal American forte, seems very much in play here.

[Nanohedron]

Like this, you mean:



I was looking for images of Celtic Rockers, but I did find this in the meantime:



Nice design.

[benhall.1]

I was looking for images of Celtic Rockers, but I did find this in the meantime:



Nice design.

What is it?

[Nanohedron]

A rocking chair. What gets called a "rocker" for short.

[Denny]

so, some guy at IKEA was on LSD?

[Nanohedron]

so, some guy at IKEA was on LSD?

Kinda looks like a thumb pick, doesn't it.