billh wrote:


I spent a number of years in a large shop being a 'WhiteSmith', although my formal title was 'Fitter'. I use the term 'White' since I worked primarily in stainless steel and titanium. As an apprentice, I was just referred to as a 'moron'.

Bob

John Ward is able to make this sort of tool.

I think a gouge of this type made from anything thinner than 2mm stock would be very difficult to control and would have a tendency to dig in. The way the gouge works ,is that the bevel which is faced downwards , acts as a kind of sole ,limiting the depth of cut by adjusting the angle of the gouge. If you use very thin steel the lenght of the bevel is very short thus limiting control ,if you use thicker stock the bevel in longer for the same angle.
Its the similar princple as the sole on a hand held wood planes, the super long try plane will cut a straight edge on a board much better than a short smoothing plane.
The easiest way for most people to get their hands on a piece of tool steel suitable for the job would be to buy a 12mm x 3mm firmer chisel from your local tool shop. A firmer chisel has a rectangular cross section as opposed to the more common bevel edged chisel which has a truncated triangle cross section. A grinding angle of about 25 degrees would give you a nice long "sole" on the gouge .
The only question is, what radius to grind at the cutting edge. You could put the same radius as the sanding block if you were to use one, but remember as you lower the angle of the gouge the curvature flattens out . There'll probably be a bit of trail and error involved.

RORY
PS for putting a burr on your curved scraper use one of these and if you go to curved scrapers on that page, there is some tips about useing scrapers
http://www.veritastools.com/products/Page.aspx?p=140

Yeah, after thinking about that for 2 seconds, I realize you're totally right and the saw blade isn't going to work. The blank that's coming in the mail is 3/32" (about 2.3mm), which I think will work pretty well. I'll report back once I've ground it. Thanks for the information guys.

Brazenkane is correct, I have made a few of the Koehler-esque gouges, thanks for the plug Padraig!

I had the opportunity a while back to compare gouges and talk to Benedict a couple years back at the SoCal Tionel. I think mine are pretty close to Benedict's by direct comparison, and they work! Bill's description is indeed correct, a hardened blade of tool steel sandwiched between two pieces of wood, held on with rivets.

I use 1/16" thick tool steel (0-1 or W-1), about 1/2" width. You can order it in from ENCO - http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPA ... PG=INLMK32 - I use oil hardening (0-1) because that is what I have on hand, but water hardening (W-1) might give you a harder edge that will last longer between sharpening.


DSC03762 by Rev Joe Buck, on Flickr


DSC03761 by Rev Joe Buck, on Flickr


Gouge bevel 2 by Rev Joe Buck, on Flickr

jdevereux, I can give you a brief description of how I make them.

The tool steel comes annealed so it is easy to cut and shape with hack saw and files. Grinding annealed steel is NOT recommended, it gums up you grinding wheel really quickly and really doea not save you anytime. Basically, file the profile and the bevel as much as possible before hardening, and drill any holes for rivets too.

Hardening - heat with a propane torch (or better yet Oxy-Acetylene with excess of acetylene, reducing atmosphere) until red hot (a magnet will no longer stick to it). You can do this on some ground up charcoal brickettes, it helps retain heat if using a small propane torch. Heat as quick as possible, and dunk in some motor oil (oil hardening), or water (water hardening). You really don't need to heat the whole blade, just the 1" or so near the tip that will be sharpened. Once cool, it should be so hard that not even a file will leave a mark on it. It is too brittle in this state so you need to temper the hardness back a bit. You can do this the way blacksmiths have done it for centuries, remove the scale and heat in a dark space slowly and carefully and note the color change, then quickly quench in oil or water again. Extent of tempering can be determined with practice very accurately, a straw yellow will get you a very hard and durable edge (Rockwell ~53-55). Another way is to simply heat in the oven at 450 Fahrenheit for about two hours, quench in oil or water.

Sharpening - can be done on a good grinder (true and smooth wheel), paying close attention that you don't heat so much that you ruin the temper, which is very easy to do with such a thin blade. Have a can of water on hand and dip the blade often to cool. Go slowly and check your progress often. This is where getting the initial bevel really close to final shape before hardening really helps, you can even do the final shaping on sand paper on a flat surface. The bevel needs to be really acute with a long bevel (see photo above), and you will find that the edge will dull quickly with use. Sharpen on a series of good stones. I use Japanese water stones, they can't be beat! I finish by stropping the edge on leather impregnated with chromium oxide paste, puts a mirror finish on it and it is REALLY sharp. Actually, Rory's link to Veritas tools will take you to probably the best and most exhaustive treatise ever written on sharpening tools (written no less by the founder of Veritas tool, The Complete Guide to Sharpening by Leonard Lee - http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.a ... 91&p=32991). It also describes in detail how to sharpen scrapers!

You could use the blade as is I guess, but it is pretty easy to add a functional handle of wood. If interested PM me and I can walk you through the process.

Hope this helps

John Ward

For about 20 bucks, you can get a piece of pre-hardened flat stock, in an 18" length, which will make about 3 tools. There are many sizes available here:


http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/Nav ... ndizedOk=Y

John makes professional grade tools. I can't recommend him highly enough!

Uillmann, pre-hardened 4142 is only 27-32 Rockwell C hardness which is way too soft. Need higher carbon steel to get to 55-60 RC. Not sure if fully hard (and properly annealed) tool steel is available for this application, but the good news is that learning to harden and temper tool steel is much easier than most people assume, easy to do with simple tools and equipment and definitely worth the effort - gives one a deserved sense of accomplishment and new-found understanding of metal working! Hell, If you don't have access to a simple propane torch, you can throw the steel on good hot bed of charcoal, or even a really good bed of coals in a camp fire, huck into some old motor oil, and never even put your beer down with the other hand! Redneck tool making at it's finest!

Padraig, thanks for the kind words, but not sure professional grade applies to me! Still learning all the time; guess that part will never change!

Cheers!

some hints for hardering + resoftening process,
-use borax powder to prevent oxidacing etc on the grinded egde/blade, heat metal abit and push the hot head in boraxpowder just keep head under "borax) it becomes like syryp when heated,
-when get steel like "orange" colour(try get borax stay allthe time over head) ,
-u can juse oil or water , but remember to spin around object when it under liquid.
-borax keeps hardened head clean,usually drops off after hardening, (if there's some left it will be removed with hot water)
- grind or sand one side clean abit (if use oil with hardening remember to clean piece well off it)
-heat now metal other end , or midlle with torch etc, U'll see how colour is chancing and blue/dark line moves to to head, when the edge is like "ligth yellow" (straw like).Cool it same way as done when hardening.

Be carefull to heat too much, step to step until the colour is rigth.

Or you could do like I did and just file down a cheap kitchen knife. It would give you an idea of whether it's for you. Myself, I went back to just sanding. Seems to work, I always wake up 1/2 hour later with a finished reed.

I never realized that stuff wasn't fully hardened. Thanks for the heads-up! 55-60 is way better.

I haven't ever tried Benedict's method, but it sure seems like a great way to prepare cane.

Uillmann, Benedict's method has been working for me, but it was pretty challenging to get to the point where it was as successful as the ole sanding cylinder method! There is not just the challenge of making the gouge and scraper, but using them without ruining the cane slip, that was the biggest challenge for me. Had to go through a few iterations of gouges and scrapers.

I think that regardless of how you prepare the slip, the method Benedict uses to determine staple depth was one of the most useful bits of advice I have ever had in reed making! You don't have to make a special gouge or scraper to adopt this method.

Best regards,

John

Two possibly-dumb questions:

How is a flat gouge better than the more typical #4 or #6 sweep in-cannel gouge?

Why is it preferable to fabricate a scraper, instead of using an inexpensive, curved, cabinet scraper-blade like this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020573/26541/Pinnacle-Plane-Blades-for-WoodRiver-Deluxe-Scraper--Set-of-4.aspx

or this:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020022/28386/Lynx-Convex-Cabinet-Scraper-Set-2.aspx

? I have a grinding wheel and some skill using it, but free time's another thing.

Thanks,
Mick

Hey Mick,
the flat gouge allows you to get into the cane from the middle (per Benedict's method) a little easier than with an in-cannel gouge. I used the middle-clamp shooting block with a in-cannel for a long time, so it definitely works, this just affords a little more control.
As for the scraper, I don't think it makes any difference. It was just quicker and cheaper for me to spend 10 minutes grinding it out of an old saw blade. I am thinking about switching to violin maker type scrapers (much thinner spring steel stock and generally a little smaller, also home made), which again, I think will give a little more control. Haven't gotten around to making them, I will report when I do.

Also, thanks so much to everybody who posted in this thread. John, I used your method with great success.

-Jack